Hi All - I've posted before (http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/ ... hp?topic_id=12139&forum=1) abut my pearlscale who is currently very unwell. At first I thought she had gas bubble disease but it seems this is not the case.

I can't get a good pic of her at the moment but she looks exactly like this http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/myalbum0/photo.php?lid=1759 (this was also my fish, he died last winter, maybe it wasn't GBD after all).

The bubbles are full of fluid, not gas, so I've been trying her with epsom salt baths every evening for the last 3 days to try and draw out excess fluid from her but she's no better. She is stuck on her side at the top of the tank.

EDIT - Mr S has reminded me that the bubbles did seem to decrease slightly after the bath but new ones have since developed. I've also noticed a new symptom - a red mark under her chin but this could just be from where she has been resting against the heater casing (she's not able to get burnt as the actual heater is a way down the casing so it's not that )

I can't find any information about it and I'm running out of options, she's still eating well, she's alert and responsive but I have to hand feed her and swimming is a huge struggle for her.

If anyone has any idea what it might be I'd love to hear from you

aww Suey, I can't help I am afraid, but I just wanted to say I am sorry that Satsuma is poorly and to wish her a full and speedy recovery.

omigod I didn't realise they were that big
still think the idea is like herpes illness vesicles in humans (chicken pox/shingles/cold sores etc)
was nothing else in fishlopaedia, will go and try other book

Cheers Cathie I've got one fish book but no mention of it and t'interweb hasn't come up trumps so far. Will continue my searching

Ive had a look in my book and it can be;

"Elongated oval objects measuring up to 10mm, stick up out of the skin. - This involves the egg pouches of copepods (parasites)"

"A swelling forms in the muscle under the skin during the course of several weeks, and my protude way out from the surface of the body. The scales can be lifted too at the site. - A sporozoan cyst or lesion form in musculature"

or

"Light coloured spherical prominences which look like eggs but cannot be wiped off form on the skinn and fins. 0.5 to 2mm in size - Your fish is affected with Lymphocystis, an incurable viral disease"

More info to follow

Refence: Handbook of Fish Diseases, Dieter Untergasser

Thanks Fred, I've looked at the lymphocystis on google and it doesn't look like Satsuma's bubbles - quite a relief

Also looked at the other things and don't think it is this but good images are quite hard to find. Will keep trying

Im afraid i cant seem to find any pictures of any of the diseases above and the information in the book is rather complex to say the least

Also none talk about being very widespread.

Ive been reading on tumours (Lipomas) and i think thats proberly going to be cause, it says they are filled with a fat/thick liquid and if its malignat tumours will spread to over parts of the body and grow quickly

http://www.fao.org/docrep/008/v9551e/V9551E42.jpg

photo c looks like its on an internal organ but no reason to say it cant be on the skin.

To me it sounds like liquid expansion of skin cells or a localised water oedema, and that is to do with the metabolism of the fish, its renal efficiency, and its ability to retain osmotic balance. To understand this you have to understand something of the way your fish works internally, so prepare for a whopping great post.lol. Gas bubble disease would be unusual unless you had very cool water temps , simply massive oxygenation, or a co2 system that was overloading the tank.

Such growths with a little fat and liquid in the pocket arent unusual in lionhead goldies for example, but in this region and with a pearlscale I would suspect this fish has some renal issues, quite probably hepatic lipidosis (unprocessable fat retained in liver tissues). With a clogged or partially clogged liver , fish cannot regulate bodily salts and uric acids, and as such even though they excrete many waste products by breathing, its possible for partial liver failure to cause them no end of problems in regulating bodily fluids.

Pearlscales are of course, not a naturally occurring fish, and to create their rather cute and pudgy appearance a massive amount of inbreeding has been done and there are side effects tof their change in form. First major deformities are spinal curvature, and a ribcage area that is massively compressed compared to say a comet goldfish.

This in turn leads to organ compression, pressure on the swimbladder and most of the major organs. This makes the function and growth of internal organs subject to pressure, and even more susceptible to the problems associated with "dwarfing" in more normal bodied fish. ergo, the liver outgrows the fish, becomes compressed in the body cavity and begins to suffer damage and eventually fail.

Now the first thing to make clear is the dwarfing associated with keeping standard goldfish in small aquaria with dodgy water quality does not hold the same implication of abusive care when it comes to pearlscales. Because of their rather extreme proportions pearlscales are likely to run into organ failures with even the finest levels of care, and its not necessarily the fault of the keeper. Firstly, guaging exactly how fat or overfed a pearlscale has become is extremely difficult.Second, because of the pearlscale skin effect their skin does not breathe normally in water, the skin slime production is often a bit dodgy too.Lastly the thing to remember is that pearlscales arent designed to live a long time, comparatively few actually get to full maturity anywhere, and lets be honest , the sight of a truly adult , near melon sized pearlscale is a very rare thing indeed. Most die prematurely, not because of the keepers care, but because over the long term their deformity makes them ill. Some pearlscales are so inbred they can suffer cancer at their first flush of mature breeding hormones. In short, pearlscales are born unhealthy. Its a shame and people often dont realise it, but there it is.

So the upshot of all this is basically how do you handle such a fish in a way that ensures you get the absolute maximum longevity from it, reduce as many of the symptoms of hepatic lipidosis as possible , and help at all times to reduce the impact of the inevitable organ compression?

The solution is simple, but a long term thing, there are no quick cures.

Large cool water bodies with very little nitrate pollution, perhaps keep levels as low as 20 ppm, never use salt with them , as using salt requires a hepatic response from the fish , dont use antibiotics and dewormers unless strictly necessary, as they too metabolise toxins within the liver, and keep the diet very lean , primarily vegetarian, and include no animal protien whatsover.

Think of a successful feeding regime for a pearlscale as if you were dealing with a very elderly animal, who would become ill on a diet that is too rich. In theory its perfectly possible to meet the nutritional needs of a pearlscale, not by feeding them every day as you might expect, but very lightly , perhaps every 3 days, and with foods based on wheatgerm etc, that you might use for feeding koi in the cooler seasons. Basically diet the fish back and keep it fairly skinny.

As for the liquid swelling itself, if it isnt solid or full of pus,personally id pop it,and put a little melafix in the water for a day, but id recommend you seeking vetinary advice on that.

If you can come back with your feeding regime and water qualities it will help enormously as to gauging what this fish needs and is responding to.

For a first step though, starve that fish out for a whole week at least, and make sure the water quality is tip-top.Its about reducing ant toxin impact, from food digestion, fat processing, and handling water pollution impact as much as possible in order to give the liver a chance to heal. Parasite nasties like liver flukes are not impossible but stange as it may seem, you have to get the fish into a fitter state, even if it is sufferring damage from such parasites before you could administer a treatment. Any treatments during hepatic failure are very risky indeed.

Good luck with the fish, dont hesitate to ask with any questions.

;)

Thanks LHG - your description of possible problems sounds very much like her symptoms. I looked at all the stuff Fred suggested and dithered over the tumours but the swellings look like little balloons rather than growths (thanks for helping Fred, everyone's support means a lot to me )

She does have problems with food and gas in the gut - I've been feeding her a mix of peas, frozen defrosted bloodworm, daphnia and brineshrimp, soaked sinking pellets and algae wafers. Just got her some veggie flakes meant for tropical fish but she's only had those once. I feed her twice a day, morning and evening. She has algae wafers/pellets in the morning then other things at night. I'll put her on a diet as of today

Some of the bubbles have popped but I might do the larger one she has as it is under her fin and put some tea tree oil in the tank.

Water readings last time I did them a few days ago were ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 25. Will try to reduce the nitrate reading some more.

Her 'sister' died recently from dropsy following a long time of renal problems (spent a lot of time nose down, problems righting herself and finally the pinecone look).

Have to admit I didn't realise quite how many problems are inherent with them when I got them Will let you know how I get on with her - I may well be back with more questions!