Hi everyone

I'm having trouble identifying a problem i'm currently having which i will detail below. I have asked for advice at another forum, but received nothing of help, other than 'get a bigger tank', which really doesn't help me at present! I'm hoping that somebody here may be able to help me, as i'm absolutely flummoxed at the moment, and need to know what i'm dealing with in order to treat it effectively!

Ok, my situation - I have just started a new setup about three months ago, although i do have quite a few years prior experience with keeping fish. The current setup is actually for the missus, but i get the job of looking after and maintaining everything, while she just watches and enjoys!!

Three months ago we bought an Interpet Fish Pod FP48 which has a 48l capacity. I know this isn't ideal for these fish, however it is sufficient for their current size, and we will be getting a much bigger tank in the coming months.

Initially we bought a goldfish and a shubunkin, which i tended to as best i could while the nitrogen cycle was establishing, doing regular tests and water changes, however about two weeks ago, the goldfish died overnight. He hadn't been himself for a week or two prior to his death, and spent a lot of time just floating in the same spot, about mid-depth in the water. There were no other major symptoms, apart from the occasional stringy white faeces. At the time i attributed his behaviour to the seasonal drop in temperature, as the tank temp had dropped from around 21-22C to around 16-17C in keeping with the onset of winter here, and i thought he was just a bit more lethargic due to the cooler temperatures.

When he died, we replaced him the following day with another shubunkin, so as not to leave the first shubunkin alone for too long - the first shubunkin has been absolutely fine throughout BTW, in fact he seems to have an incredible amount of energy! He never sits still! For about the past four or five days, the new shubunkin has become very lethargic and is behaving almost exactly the same as his predecessor did in the run up to his death. The only other symptom that is evident is that he is clamping his dorsal fin a little, although this is not constant, or particularly severe. He is still feeding, and is also reactive to stimuli. He swims up to see me when i approach the tank, but after a while returns to his motionless position (usually oriented with his head down slightly). This is all much the same as his predecessor was, only the new fish hasn't had any of the stringy poo,, not that i've noticed anyway..

In reaction to his symptoms, i fasted them for a day, and for the past two days i have only fed them garlic infused peas, which both of them seem to have relished. Last night i saw the new(sick) fish produce a decent sized green faeces, so i'm pretty certain he isn't constipated, although i am thinking i will leave them on peas for another day or two to make sure. Their staple food is Aquarian Goldfish Flake Food, with which i've never had any problems with in the past. I also feed peas and broccoli on occasion, and fast for a day occasionally too. I'm thinking about trying a couple of very thin slivers of fresh garlic??

I have several live plants in the tank, and a decent hiding place, and i'm pretty sure he isn't stressed about anything.

The water parameters are as follows -

CL2 0mg/l

pH 7.6

KH 20d (this is the maximum the test indicates)

GH 16d (this is the maximum the test indicates)

NO2 0

NO3 10 - 25

The only thing i think may be of concern in the water is hardness. The tap-water where i live is very hard, but i've kept goldfish in it previously for years without issue, plus only one fish is affected, so i don't think this is the problem, however i am more than happy to be corrected!

I'm beginning to think that it may be some sort of bacterial infection. Is there any way to ascertain this for certain?

One more thing to note which may or may not be important. the top corner of his tail fin is very slightly raggy, and is a different shape to the bottom corner, but that has been this way since we bought him, and doesn't seem to have gotten any better or worse, so it may just be genetic. The missus chose him, but never noticed his tail fin at the time. Could this possibly be indicative of a bacterial infection? Should it not have healed in the two weeks we've had him? I've seen damaged fins heal almost overnight before.

I can't think of anything else pertinent to add at the moment, but if i do think of anything, i'll update this thread. Please ask if there is anything else you wish to know to help me diagnose/treat this issue. I'm determined to give this fish a happy healthy life, and i would hate to lose another one!

Any help will be immensely appreciated..

Thanks in advance

sid

P.S. I apologise for the barrage of information! Better to give too much than not enough though eh?!

Hi

Unfortunately the other forum were right that goldfish need much bigger tanks. Starting them in something very small is not a safe way to rear them in good health as the low water volume rapidly becomes polluted affecting the fishes' immune system and stunting growth. There is also too little space for the fish to exercise their muscles and develop properly.

Cycling the tank with fish in situ causes long term damage as they struggle to cope with the toxins from their own waste when the tank is cycling and many don't survive the process. Those that do are usually compromised long term and will tend to have a shorter life span with much greater susceptibility to infection. Though you tested regularly it looks like you're using test strips which are not very accurate, especially during cycling and there appears to be no ammonia test. Ammonia is the most toxic chemical present in a new tank and testing for it is vital when fish are in place to ensure water changes are done to maintain a very low level.


The small tank combined with a fish in cycle has already damaged the first fish in there causing the death of one and what sounds like a bacterial infection in the other. Using test strips and not testing for ammonia you can't be sure right now that the tank is fully cycled, nor how high nitrate is rising between changes (strips are inaccurate). The first thing you need is a decent liquid based test kit like this one .

The fish do need much larger accommodation very quickly as the small tank will cause long term problems for them. This article explains the size of tank needed, but to be honest, common goldfish are better off in a pond. If you won't be able to get a suitable tank very soon (4ft long, 250 litres just for two) then consider temporarily housing them in a large fish safe storage box to give them more water volume and space and then rehoming them to someone with a pond next May when the water warms up. Staples "Really Useful" boxes go up to about 140 litres and are safe for fish - simply fill with water, dechlorinate and move the existing filter and fish across.

Hi sidders2 welcome to FK!

I've just linked to this for another member with tank size issues for goldies.

Staples Really Useful 145L Crate:
http://www.staples.co.uk/storage-arch ... orage/145-litre-box-clear

Food safe, so fish safe and gives that much needed volume, short term whilst you save up/locate a suitable tank. I use these for QT and for storing water.

The fish will grow quickly or should do with adequate volume and good feeding) my two fancies were in a 180 Litre set up from word go and reached adult size at around 2 years old. They are coming in at the mo at 7 inches and 8 inches minus tails.

Thank you for the prompt responses. It's much appreciated

Yes i am using tetra 6in1 strips at the moment, however given the lack of ammonia test on these strips, i took a sample to my LFS to check, and ammonia was at 0, so the tank does appear to be fully cycled. I have ordered the exact same test kit you indicated, and hope to receive that in the next few days. I really want to be able to check for ammonia spikes myself, and as you pointed out, the strips are far from accurate/precise.

The fish will be getting a new 55gal tank we are having built for them, but that won't be for about two months yet. Will their current home not be sufficient until then as long as i keep the water parameters right? They are only about 2" long at the moment..

The first fish who went through the nitrogen cycle is very healthy and extremely active.

The fish with the suspected infection was added after the tank had cycled.

Will garlic infused food be sufficient to treat an infection if this is the case? If so, how long would it usually take to show an improvement? I'd prefer not to use a chemical treatment if possible, but if needs must...

If the new large tank is coming in two months then they should be OK as long as you have a decent test kit to monitor conditions and do regular large water changes in the meantime. I'd suggest a minimum of 25% a week, more if nitrates rise to near 40ppm before a week is up.

Personally, I wouldn't rely on garlic to do the job. A decent anti-bacterial med will be more effective and is perfectly safe as long as it's dosed according to instructions. Make sure you do a big water change just before the first dose and remove any carbon from the filter. I usually recommend eSHa 2000 as I've always found it very effective and totally safe even for more sensitive fish species'.

Providing the 55 gallon is at least 4 foot long, that would be OK to house two. Shubunkins are pond fish really and ideally would be re-homed in a pond once the weather has warmed up next year. You could then house fancies in that 55 gallon who are much better suited to tank life

8 weeks in just 48 litres during/after a fish in cycle isn't ideal. If it was me personally, I would certainly upgrade to that plastic crate in the interim, truthfully.

These fish produce a lot of waste/ammonia and the added volume that crate brings, hence dilution of the toxins, could actually 'save them' in the interim. There have been far too many losses (and shed tears) here, experienced by many in your position at the mo.

It would be churlish not to recommend that larger set up, in the interim really.

Understood. Thank you both.

Does the ESHA 2000 treatment affect the beneficial bacteria that cycle the nitrogen at all?

Also is it effective on internal infections?

It does say that it also treats parasites too, which was my other concern.

Hi

No eSha does not adversely affect filter bacteria and yes, it does deal with internal bacterial infection

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This doesn't work. I know from experience as I nearly lost one of my fish to an internal infection, I was treating him for ages with garlic. He continued to decline and in the end I medicated him and the infection cleared up very quickly.

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That's a very definitive answer Miss Dorsal! Thank you.

I'll chuck the garlic idea out the window, and go with Fishlady's recommended med.