(1) 2 »
Ange Ange
  • Not too shy to talk
  • Not too shy to talk
  • Joined: 7/10/2008 9:24
  • From Midlothian
  • Group: Registered Users Basic Membership
  • Posts: 36
  • Posted on: 20/11/2013 17:05
Anti fungal or anti-bacterial? #1
Hello,

My oranda Woody has not been well for 2 days now. He is listless, not eating and has what appears to be a white fungus on his head and parts of his body and fins. When checking him over yesterday we dislodged quite a bit of pus from his hood with a q-tip. This pus hasn't reformed.

He is in a 140 ltr tank with a comet. We've had him over 5 years now with no problems with the water quality.

The photo was taken yesterday evening but unfortunately the white coating is much more pronounced today. I plan to get his medication tomorrow, but am unsure as to what his problem is.
Many thanks in advance.

Attach file:



jpg  (110.57 KB)
7464_528cebe0b1eb8.jpg 800X533 px
Fishlady Fishlady
  • Tropical Moderator
  • Tropical Moderator
  • Joined: 6/7/2010 19:26
  • From Worcestershire
  • Group: Caresheets Moderators FK Supporter Registered Users Image Admin Advisers
  • Posts: 13924
  • Posted on: 20/11/2013 17:07
Re: Anti fungal or anti-bacterial? #2
If there's been pus it sounds bacterial so that's what I'd try. However, if you can locate a bottle of eSHa 2000 it treats both bacterial and fungal infections and would be my first choice.

I take it all is OK with the water - pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate all where they ought to be?
Ange Ange
  • Not too shy to talk
  • Not too shy to talk
  • Joined: 7/10/2008 9:24
  • From Midlothian
  • Group: Registered Users Basic Membership
  • Posts: 36
  • Posted on: 20/11/2013 17:28
Re: Anti fungal or anti-bacterial? #3
Thanks for your advice fishlady. Unfortunately I can't find it available in any shop I could get to tomorrow. I've ordered it express delivery online so hopefully I can start treatment by Friday. It seems to cover a lot of ailments as you suggest so hopefully it will get him back to his normal active self. He is just lying on the bottom looking very miserable.
Violet Violet
  • Tropical Adviser
  • Tropical  Adviser
  • Joined: 22/11/2008 17:42
  • From West Yorkshire
  • Group: Registered Users Caresheets FK Supporter Advisers Deep End
  • Posts: 7186
  • Posted on: 20/11/2013 18:54
Re: Anti fungal or anti-bacterial? #4
What a lovely fish Ange. You should be really proud

Yes, do check the pH and GH of the tank water when your test arrives. I'm in a soft, acidic water region (KH1, GH3) and my fancies showed signs of excess slime coatings looking like a thin white layer, when fist housed.

On upping both the KH and GH (bit of Bicarb of Soda/Epsom salts respectively to new tank water each week when I cleaned them) this brought the range more into line and suited to fancies and the issue disappeared completely.
Please fill in your personal profile if you are posti
Ange Ange
  • Not too shy to talk
  • Not too shy to talk
  • Joined: 7/10/2008 9:24
  • From Midlothian
  • Group: Registered Users Basic Membership
  • Posts: 36
  • Posted on: 20/11/2013 19:26
Re: Anti fungal or anti-bacterial? #5
Hello Violet,

Thanks for your kind words but I'm feeling not so proud at the moment. Although the water on the last change was just right I can't help but feel that something has made him unwell.

Your posting about the water in your area got me thinking. We moved house in the summer to a rural area and our water is supplied from a private supply on a nearby farm (I don't know the exact details but we don't have to pay water rates any longer and when we ran out of water in the summer it was because our local tank on the farm had ran dry!). Although the water is perfectly safe to drink it often has white scum on it so we bought a water filter jug for the fridge to filter the tap water through when using it for cooking water or drinking water. It does make me wonder, although we have been here since July so any problems should have been noticed sooner - probably a red herring

I've attached a photo of Woody when we first got him about 5 years' ago - you don't notice how much they grow when you live with them but my mum certainly did when she visited this year - seeing old photos really brings it home.

Attach file:



jpg  (141.57 KB)
7464_528d0d2ba61a5.jpg 800X533 px
Violet Violet
  • Tropical Adviser
  • Tropical  Adviser
  • Joined: 22/11/2008 17:42
  • From West Yorkshire
  • Group: Registered Users Caresheets FK Supporter Advisers Deep End
  • Posts: 7186
  • Posted on: 20/11/2013 19:54
Re: Anti fungal or anti-bacterial? #6
Hi

If you have recently moved, then yes, it will be a good starting point to test your new water for some results, so you know what you are actually dealing with.

Most keepers here use these two kits.

API Freshwater Master Test kit:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trk ... st+kit&_sacat=0&_from=R40

API GH & KH kit:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odk ... h&_nkw=api+gh+kh&_sacat=0

These last for a number of years and have more than 800 tests so are really cost effective long term.

OK, tests to try - this bit will make you feel like a mad scientist lol.

1. Tap water pH (test immediately when drawn) and again after being left standing for 24 hours in a glass/mug. Any difference.

Your set up is a bit different, what with being farm fed, but local water boards generally add temporary treatments that gas off over 24 hours (nicer for us the drink) but then local water pH levels off to a 'true reading' after 24 hours. In some areas it goes up, in mine it goes down. My tap water reads pH7.6, after 24 hours it falls to pH6 - no good for fancies. Worth checking still, certainly.

2. Tap water GH and KH - you can test these immediately. GH is the general hardness, KH is the carbonate hardness (what keeps pH stable long term).

Water Hardness (GH) : Terms and Conversion

mg/l CaC03 / oDegrees of Hardness / Described as:

0 - 50 / 0 - 3 / soft
50 - 100 / 3 - 6 / fairly soft
100 ? 200 / 6 - 12 / slightly hard
200 - 300 / 12 - 18 / moderately hard
300 - 540 / 18 - 30 / hard
540 plus / 30 plus / very hard

Fancies generally like it slightly hard/moderately hard/hard.

3. Tap water Nitrate - the end stage of the nitrogen cycle. Legally, this can be as high as 50ppm in the UK. Given fancy keepers try to keep nitrate at under 20ppm is tanks (seems to help with buoyancy issues), this too would be helpful.

You could then run the same tests on the tank water (no need to let the pH test sit for 24 hours - it already has, in the tank).

It's useful then to cross reference these so you know how much water to change each week when you do the partial water change, and if you should be modding the new water each week a little, before it goes into the tank.

For example, we often see tank substrate pushing up the natural pH and as in my case, I know I need to harden and buffer the new water before I use it.

Wish I'd paid more attention to science lessons at school LOL.

Someone once here said that keeping an aquarium was all to do with keeping water. Keep that safe and matched to the fish requirements, and the fish look after themselves.

Fire away with readings when you have them and we can then advise more if needs be

Apologies - bit war and peace - eek - but hope this helps.
Please fill in your personal profile if you are posti
Ange Ange
  • Not too shy to talk
  • Not too shy to talk
  • Joined: 7/10/2008 9:24
  • From Midlothian
  • Group: Registered Users Basic Membership
  • Posts: 36
  • Posted on: 21/11/2013 16:21
Re: Anti fungal or anti-bacterial? #7
Hello Violet,

Thank you so much for your in depth reply. I also didn't do well in chemistry at school - it was all foreign to me, and distinctly uninteresting

I have to confess that I have never tested the GH or KH of the water in the tank or the tap water. When we acquired our first 'rescue' goldfish we bought him a large tank and three fancy mates, on the advice of the local shop, as well as a water testing kit (we've always used a Nutrafin kit which tests pH, nitrate, ammonia and nitrite. We were never advised about the other two tests.

I've tested the tank water again today and all levels are as they should be, and I tested the tap water as having a pH of 7.5, same as that in the tank. Usually it's water change day but we're leaving it till Saturday this week as we are putting down flooring at the weekend and having to empty the tank to move it so would prefer to limit the disruption when Woody is unwell.

I've now ordered the GH and KH test for the future. His medication should arrive tomorrow and I'm not leaving the house till the postman arrives:)

Incidently how did you get your reading of 7.6 for pH? The Nutrafin test is based on a colour match and I wonder whether the API tests are more accurate?
Many thanks again.
Violet Violet
  • Tropical Adviser
  • Tropical  Adviser
  • Joined: 22/11/2008 17:42
  • From West Yorkshire
  • Group: Registered Users Caresheets FK Supporter Advisers Deep End
  • Posts: 7186
  • Posted on: 21/11/2013 18:52
Re: Anti fungal or anti-bacterial? #8
Hi Ange

I use the API kits. Haven't used the Nutrafin versions but assume the scales are a bit different between the two.

Glad the explanation helped a bit.
Please fill in your personal profile if you are posti
Tknoxx Tknoxx
  • Home away from home
  • Home away from home
  • Joined: 26/12/2011 1:40
  • From Isle of Lewis
  • Group: Registered Users Basic Membership Deep End
  • Posts: 848
  • Posted on: 22/11/2013 23:12
Re: Anti fungal or anti-bacterial? #9
The API kit may be more accurate - it has two tests - a pH and a high range pH test kit.

If you remember from your chemistry school days there are all sorts of indicators to test for pH. By using two different pH tests you can get a more accurate pH than say a universal indicator - these do the whole range of pH levels but less accurately.

API salt and freshwater pH tests

As you can see one test is accurate to most people between 6.0 - 7.2 and should be easy to see any differences.
If the pH is above 7.2 then the high range pH test is accurate from 7.4 up to 8.4 therefore a reasonable attempt on the pH can be made.

Nutrafin only has one kit right?
It probably is less accurate then as it will change colour around 7 to show acidic or basic pH but to less an accurate extent.
It apparently goes from 4.5 to 9? This is a pretty huge range to be honest and so colours will change slower between different pH. Which makes it less accurate.
TK
Tknoxx Tknoxx
  • Home away from home
  • Home away from home
  • Joined: 26/12/2011 1:40
  • From Isle of Lewis
  • Group: Registered Users Basic Membership Deep End
  • Posts: 848
  • Posted on: 22/11/2013 23:29
Re: Anti fungal or anti-bacterial? #10
For anyone that cares here is a picture of lot of different indicators.

indicators

You can get a fairly accurate pH reading if you are modifying the pH by using two of the indicators.

Say you want a pH of 6.4 you could test against litmus and bromthymol blue pH charts as they change colour then.

Or say you want to make sure the pH in your tank is always above pH 7.0 you could use phenol red and bromthymol blue(I would suggest using two indicators just to make sure)

Here is a lovely table showing the figures when each indicator colour change occurs: Indicator Table

I'm not sure but the low range API looks like bromthymol blue and the high range like cresol red. I would say they have likely used a mix (universal indicators are usually a mix).
TK