G-Man G-Man
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  • Posted on: 14/12/2012 0:04
Zebra Danios - rapid breathing #1
Hi
hope you can help.
Came home to notice danios rapid breathing an d mouths open.
Worst 2 are flashing and of those 2, one has the beginnings of bulging eyes and swelling of the gill covers.

Tank set up for one year.
No fish deaths or illness
Seachem prime only in water.
Standard filter sponge in Biorb basic air pump

only changes are:
missed weekly 30% water change ( have gone 2 weeks)
Missed cleaning out dead leaves in this time
added beta (stupidly) about 3 weeks ago (probably beyond bio load for tank)

NO2 - 0
NO3 - 40ppm ( comes like this from tap though)
NH3 & NH4 - 0
have not checked PH (but is about 8 in this area)
have not got any other testers

4 x Zebra Danio's (4cm)
5 x white cloud mountain minnows
1 x beta (added 3 weeks ago)
Grass ring (synthetic)
2 x broad leafed plants( silk)
2 x broad leafed plant (live)
1 x Oxygen weed (live)
Biorb Feng Shui pebble pack
2 x Biorb Ceramic media packs
Fluval 50W E5O electronic heater
Large pea gravel
Is that the time!? I was just watching the Danio's.

My Beta's are tapping on the glass again. It's not dinner time yet chaps.
nathangoudie nathangoudie
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  • Posted on: 14/12/2012 7:21
Re: Zebra Danios - rapid breathing #2
What's the tank size and current temperature of the tank?

You really should re-home the betta as danios are way too fast and will definitely harm the betta.

It could be that they're in a seriously lack of oxygen because of rotting leaves. You sure that your tap nitrate is 40? If so you should try to find a way to reduce that!!

Are there any flow or water movement? It's important to have flow and water movement to keep danios healthy as they're very active.

How many fish are you currently have in the tank?
Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 14/12/2012 10:14
Re: Zebra Danios - rapid breathing #3
Which test kit are you using? If your nitrate reading is the same in the tank as it is from the tap there is something very wrong. Fish produce waste including ammonia which should be converted by the filter bacteria into nitrite and then nitrate. This means that in a fully cycled tank there will always be a higher nitrate level in the tank than there is in the tap water unless you are changing 100% of the water.

Other than that, which indicates quite a serious issue, the other problems are that I see from your profile this tank is a 30 litre Biorb. This is too small for any fish, and its shape (rounded) means there is very little surface area to allow CO2 to escape from the water and oxygen to enter. Danios and White Cloud Minnows are both temperate, shoaling fish who need to in groups of at least six with the temperature under 24C and preferably at around 20C and are fast swimming fish who need a long rectangular tank with high water flow and oxygenation.

The Betta is tropical and needs the water considerably warmer. He is also not suited to be in a tank with other fish, needing at least a 45 litre well planted tank of his own. The pH of your water is too high for him and the water is too hard.

Even if the tank was suitable for fish it is very overstocked. Typical stock levels based on 1 inch per gallon would mean that with a 30 litre tank, after deduction for space taken up by gravel and decor there is less than 6 gallons of water in the tank. That would be 6 inches of fish at projected adult size. Your stock adds up to over 20 inches, which makes the lack of any nitrate generated in the tank even more worrying.

Looking at your profile, I see you have two other larger tanks with comets in one. The tank they are in is also too small - they grow to 12 inches and should probably be rehomed to a pond next Spring when the weather warms up. The Danios and White Clouds would be better move into the 190 really, and the Betta rehomed/returned.
G-Man G-Man
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  • Posted on: 14/12/2012 20:09
Re: Zebra Danios - rapid breathing #4
Hi fish lady,

I knew from reading your posts I would get a roasting if it was you that replied
test kit is API Master test kit - NH4 / N03 / N02 / pH hi-lo range.
Fish are all looking better since the water change (and increased dose of seachem) apart from the most serious one, she is no longer flashing but eyes seem a bit bulged still and still gulping rapidly with open mouth.
The others have gone back to breeding displays.


Over 40ppm it is very difficult to judge the exact reading.
The water in my area is particularly high in Nitrates and does read at between 40 & 80ppm on the colour chart. I had never thought to test my water until starting up the aquariums. I am now looking at fitting a nitrate filter to our mains. I think the human max allowed in mains supply is only slightly higher than this.

Yes, the Danios and WCMM's will be going in the 190 with an external filter as soon as it is finished..
The beta was planned to stay on his own in the biorb with heavy planting. Once the big tank is done I was planning to mod the biorb with external filter and sump.

The two goldfish were rescued from the toilet so even this size is better than that. I am currently looking for someone with a pond to take these. Unfortunately none of my friends have one and my garden is a bomb site with a pond low on my wife's list.

Any thoughts on the symptoms would be a great help, as would your thoughts on the nitrates (BTW i am very much stickler for accuracy and use a syringe to fill the test tubes and always shake the nitrate bottles for the required length of time unlike LFS)
Is that the time!? I was just watching the Danio's.

My Beta's are tapping on the glass again. It's not dinner time yet chaps.
G-Man G-Man
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  • Posted on: 14/12/2012 20:23
Re: Zebra Danios - rapid breathing #5
Hi

Tank at 23.5c
occupants:
4 x Zebra Danio's (4cm)
5 x white cloud mountain minnows
1 x beta (added 3 weeks ago).
Water movement supplied by air pump.
I think that I have added too many plants in pots and a piece of bog wood, I will take these out to increase the water volume.
The heater is also using up space but keeps temp stable.
Yes Nitrates between 40 and 80ppm from the tap. A mate near me and so on same mains gets the same results. Not great is it? Almost puts me of drinking it.
Yes i think Oxygen deprivation could be it, plants usually only last about 8 weeks before starting to rot or loose leaves. I am always careful to remove these.
Thanks for the advise on tank mates, they seem to ignore each other but then the tank has a lot of plant cover.
Is that the time!? I was just watching the Danio's.

My Beta's are tapping on the glass again. It's not dinner time yet chaps.
Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 14/12/2012 23:06
Re: Zebra Danios - rapid breathing #6
Sorry I forgot you were intending to move the minows and Danios to the 190

As for the Betta, you'd really do best by him if you could get him a conventionally shaped 45 litre tank, and mix the water for im with some RO to get that pH down. The 30 litre Biorb just isn't a suitable home for fish. The shape of it is too compromising in terms of surface area unless you only half fill it, and then there's even less water than before. As it stands right now the Biorb is very overstocked with him in there and the water is too cold for home. He's a tropical chap and needs it up around 25C.

Regarding the nitrate issue. The legal limit in the UK is 50ppm so it's not likely to be more than that, but it's too high for easy fish keeping. It sounds like mine which is 40ppm. An inexpensive solution is the Aquaworld Nitrate Filter at ?13.99. It connects to a cold tap via a hose adapter and water is trickled through a resin which removes nitrates. It becomes exhausted over time and can be recharged by dripping salt water through in the opposite direction. I used one for some time and it reduced my nitrates from 40ppm to 0.

The other option is RO water either from the LFS, or you can buy a unit and make your own. It has to be remineralised though to make it habitable for fish as the RO membrane strips all solids from the water including essential minerals and trace elements. It's ideal if you need to soften water and remove nitrates, so that's what I do nowadays.
G-Man G-Man
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  • Posted on: 15/12/2012 19:16
Re: Zebra Danios - rapid breathing #7
Thanks for the reply.
I will get my wife to read this.
She likes the style of the biorb. I am trying to pursuade her to tell me keep the cube aquarium. the calculator puts this tank at around 125l.
Would this be OK if not filled and planted like submerged rainforest?
Another option as my wife likes the BiOrb so much was to hide an external filter behind the sofa plus a small tank to use as a sump with the heater in that.
I would modify the air pump inlet in the base to become the water outlet and modify the tank lid to take a spray bar inlet.

Do you need new resin in the end in the nitrate filter?
If so how long does it last and what is the cost?

What RO unit would you recommend?
Do you know if you can add these to the rising main Ie just after the stop tap in your kitchen?
Is that the time!? I was just watching the Danio's.

My Beta's are tapping on the glass again. It's not dinner time yet chaps.
Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 15/12/2012 20:17
Re: Zebra Danios - rapid breathing #8
The trouble with the Biorb is that the surface area is just too little. The only way for gases to exchange is through the surface so a large surface area is essential. It's also very unnatural and stressful for fish to swim in circles.

If your wife is determined to keep it then suggest she plants it well and keeps a few Cherry shrimps or similar in it as they will be fine.

The 125 litre would be great and Bettas like lots of plants so plant as much as you like. In a tank that size you can probably add a decent shoal of Cories for added interest as with that amount of space and their being bottom dwelling fish there should be no issues between them and the Betta.

The nitrate filter isn't designed to be refilled. Eventually recharging will become less effective and it will simply need to be replaced at ?13.99.

RO units should be plumbed into the mains for best operation. The higher the water pressure, the more efficiently they work and the less reject water is created to produce a given amount of RO.

I use a cheap RO unit from eBay. The innards are the same on all of them, but the more expensive ones give you a fancier casing and some have TDS meters and pressure gauges built in. Prices for the cheap ones vary depending on how much you need it to produce. I use a 50 gallon per day unit costing about ?40.

As well as the RO unit you'll need a food safe storage container to keep the RO in and a TDS meter to check the product water as when the membrane is due to be renewed the TDS will start to rise. A good hand-held TDS meter can be had for about ?15.
Judgegeo Judgegeo
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  • Posted on: 15/12/2012 20:22
Re: Zebra Danios - rapid breathing #9
Hi G-man, you don't need new resin. Just a high strength salt solution to be pumped through to recharge it.