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psymongreen psymongreen
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  • Posted on: 27/1/2012 10:24
Cardinal Tetra Issues #1
Hi Guys,

I think I've got something nasty in my tank. I have already lost one Cardinal to this, and it looks like I'm about to lose a 2nd. I had the first one start with a small white spec last year (single) on the join between the body and tail. It took about a month to gradually get bigger. I moved him to a QT, but after a while, it grew so large that the tail actually dropped off and the tetra died a day later. I've now got a 2nd Cardinal in the same situation. Below are some vids as it's nearly impossible to get a clear pic. He's still swimming well, eating normally and generally seems "happy". So far, he's had it for about 4 or 5 weeks. Might be slightly longer.

I've not had much luck with medication. So far, I've tried (not at the same time - at least a week between each med) Protozin, Sterazin and the latest Myxazin (after reading the Waterlife "DISEASE SYMPTOMS AND TREATMENTS" page.

Water params:

Temp 25.1
NH4 0.0
NO2 0.0
NO3 5.0
FE 0.05
PO4 0.5
PH 6.6
kH 2
gH 6

Clip 1
Clip 2

Any ideas? My only thought was maybe Lymphocystis? Only thing I can find that sounds remotely like what I can see. Based on that, I've taken their advice on this one, and treating the main tank rather than just the visibly infected fish. There isn't much in the way of bullying, but the Apisto girls do pick on the smaller fish if they get to close.

Edit: I should add - it looks like I may have lost 3 of my Otos as well - but I think that may have been around the time Andre passed away so could have been related to that - he didn't have any visible white marks that I could see, so not sure if his death was related - I still think that was due to the raised pH and FE I had. As you can see, now I have my own RO unit, I have that back under control.
Grahamcole Grahamcole
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  • Posted on: 27/1/2012 12:50
Re: Cardinal Tetra Issues #2
Hard to tell in the video but have a look at Saprolegnia?

If this looks right try 1gm per litre of aquarium salt to the tank.
psymongreen psymongreen
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  • Posted on: 27/1/2012 13:01
Re: Cardinal Tetra Issues #3
I did look at that before - based on the Waterlife info, Protozin should have helped if it was that, but it didn't make much difference that I could tell. Also, the pics on-line for Saprolegnia don't really look the same to me. I'll see if I can get a pic.
suey2 suey2
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  • Posted on: 27/1/2012 18:49
Re: Cardinal Tetra Issues #4
Sorry to hear you're having problems As you know I'm not much cop on tropicals but have you considered neon tetra disease? I know these are cardinals but it's not purely a neon issue, there's a pic in the PFK A-Z:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3729

Lymphocystis does not affect tetras according to the A-Z

Quote:

Lymphocystis disease
A relatively harmless viral disease that affects certain freshwater and marine fish. It manifests as white to pale pink wart-like growths on the skin and/or fins.

There can be single or several growths that sometimes develop into cauliflower-like clusters.

Affected fish typically remain otherwise healthy and do not body-rub ? in contrast to fish suffering from whitespot or other irritating skin parasites. Often, only a single fish is affected.

Lymphocystis affects the more evolutionary advanced groups of fish such as cichlids, anabantoids (Gouramis and relatives) and Glassfishes. It does not affect catfishes, barbs or tetras.

There?s no chemical treatment, but recuperate affected fish under optimal conditions. This will help the fish?s immune system to overpower the virus, causing the growths to eventually disappear


If I think of anything else ...
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Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 27/1/2012 19:13
Re: Cardinal Tetra Issues #5
Don't think that's NTD - the fish looks too brightly coloured and the spot isn't characteristic, plus while Cardinals can catch NTD it's much rarer in them. It's so uncommon that they were thought for a long time to be immune.

Don't know what it IS though
permafrost permafrost
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  • Posted on: 27/1/2012 21:36
Re: Cardinal Tetra Issues #6
Hi!
Sorry if links to other forums are against the site's rules - I tried to check the rules first but couldn't find them for some reason. Anyway I think it might help you:
Single-Cardinal-Tetra-has-lump-base-of-tail
Someone there suggested Penducle Disease, you might want to check it out.

Something else to consider. I used to have neons which suffered from fish TB. All of them had developed lumps like that at the first stages of the disease but never did they actually lose their tails as happened to your fish nor did the lumps continue growing. They did develop many other symptoms characteristic to fish TB though, as the crooked spine, wasting, discolouration, various other skin lesions and so on. Just to keep in mind, in case you notice any other symptoms, too.

Sorry for the bad news


PS - Just seen the thread about forum etiquette I don't often log in which means I don't usually check the members' lounge. I'm leaving the link as it is, because I think it can help here. I guess if it's a problem mods can delete it.
Grahamcole Grahamcole
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  • Posted on: 27/1/2012 22:21
Re: Cardinal Tetra Issues #7
When I first looked at it NTD did spring to mind, but it just didn't look right.

If it is NTD then get the fish out of the tank ASAP, although if fish are already showing signs you might be to late to save most of the others.
Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 28/1/2012 9:14
Re: Cardinal Tetra Issues #8
Two things have sprung to mind overnight - first, what's the pH of the tank? You mentioned some issue with pH stabilty, what happened there? Most Cardinals in the UK are still wild caught, and need very soft acidic water so this may be related to pH issues.

The second is infection with one of the mycobacterium strains. Mostly this is a chronic disease with very slow progression and varied symptoms, but lumps and bumps certainly appear as it progresses. It's often carried by fish and doesn't manifest until some environmental stress depresses immunity (such as fluctuating or incorrect pH).

If it is a mycobacterial infection the only effective treatment is antibiotics which have to be prescribed by a Vet., but as diagnosis involves microscopic examination of infected tissue this can be expensive (think ?80 or so to diagnose, plus antibiotics). Until you're sure, take precautions when working on the tank as this can be transmitted to humans and cause a nasty skin infection.
psymongreen psymongreen
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  • Posted on: 29/1/2012 17:33
Re: Cardinal Tetra Issues #9
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the responses. I ended up taking him out of the tank last night and introducing him to Clove oil. The other cardinals started to take an interest in the "bump" and it looked like they were trying to nibble it. His tail also looked more curved, and it did look like there was a slight gap between his body and tail section - that's what happened the night before it dropped off on the other one. He was also slower around the tank than he had been. I decided that for the sake of the rest of the fish, taking him out was the best option.

To answer some of the questions - current pH is 6.6 and has been at that for 5 weeks after slowly bringing it back down over a number of water changes. It had hit over 7.6 at one point - thanks to the shop I was getting my RO from . Now I religiously check the pH of water I'm doing water changes with. I always used to, but the LFS had always been so good, and the pH had always been 6.6 after minerals that I didn't notice they were giving me water that was testing off the low pH chart until the whole tank had risen.

You could be right on mycobacterium. After doing some reading, and seeing that Antibiotics only sometimes help, I think that my best option for now is to keep water quality A1 (much easier with my own RO unit) and monitor the rest of the fish. I certainly won't be adding anything else to the tank until I'm 100% sure there's nothing nasty lurking in there.

I've got separate fish bucket/net etc so I hope if there is anything nasty, it won't spread to my Barb tank.

Thanks again

Si
suey2 suey2
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  • Posted on: 29/1/2012 21:19
Re: Cardinal Tetra Issues #10
Aw, sorry to hear you had to do the clove oil, never nice but sounds like the kindest thing for all concerned

Sounds like a good idea to keep everything separate for the different tanks now, don't forget to be very careful if you have any cuts etc. on your hands just to be on the safe side. It might sound daft but a pair of marigolds is better than contracting myco! And no starting the siphon with your mouth If that's what it is, then as you say no more fish for the moment and keep on top of water quality etc. and hope to keep it in check Hope that's the last you see of it.
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