chopper chopper
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  • Posted on: 5/7/2004 16:55
going big #1
HI all

Decided that little fountain pump in pond is no way any use as the filter in it is a little piece of foam that blocks up every 2 days. Plus have decided to add a waterfall (about 1 and 1/2 foot high)(going build it myself, none of these precast plastic johnies).

Pond is 300 litres capacity (301 if it rains)

So advice needed now on the following requirements:-

do i need a seperate filter?

do i need a seperate pump. or will one do fountain and waterfall?

can i get a pump filter to do all 3 jobs in one ie filter, fountain and waterfall?

all ideas and suggestions will be gratefully received.

thanks in advance

chopper

Owner of 10 goldfish, Custard, Speedy, Spot, Natalie, Colonel, Goldy, Bulldog, Blackie and Pete and Sick Note and now five new babies that have bred in the pond,(oh and 1 plastic duck, 1 rubber duck, used to be 2 rubber ducks but the lawn mower at...
Goldy Goldy
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  • Posted on: 5/7/2004 19:02
Re: going big #2
Hi Chopper Hopefully Sean will come on soon and be able to help you there, let us know how you get on, details please.
seanmckinney seanmckinney
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  • Posted on: 5/7/2004 21:09
Re: going big #3
Assuming the fountain pump has a screen as well as a filter I would get rid of an in the pond filter and use a seperate external filter, they are easier to clean, if it doesnt have a screeen then either devise one or keep the filter otherwise you may sushie fish.
I would use seperate pumps it can simplify things. What exactly is your existing pump?
Pump selection depends on many variables
1) the actual flowrate you want, you will need to check this but I think its either 50 or 100 gph per in of fall width if you are going for a classical flat sheet of water effect. Bigger flowrate = bigger pump
2) How high your falls will be, taller falls = bigger pump
3) the length of pipe feeding the falls etc, longer route = bigger pump
4) diameter of the pipe larger the diameter = SMALLER pump

I will continue this later but I suggest you surf for "pipe losses " "pump charts" and upflow/downflow filters as background reading
chopper chopper
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  • Posted on: 5/7/2004 21:56
Re: going big #4
Hi Sean

thanks for answering (I knew u would). the original pump that is in now is only a 600 (?) it all came as a kit from Aldi pump liner all for £24.99.

As for the fountain i only want a bell head as the pond is not that wide and therefore any wind on an upright fountain blows it way off course and the water goes everywhere but back in the pond.

When u talk about an external filter are u suggesting something like the green genie and others by lotus, hozelock, fishmate that look like a box type chamber.

My local fish shop have suggested one at £45 and a pump at £35 but dont know what the waterflow ratios are but i told him my capacity!

Chopper

Owner of 10 goldfish, Custard, Speedy, Spot, Natalie, Colonel, Goldy, Bulldog, Blackie and Pete and Sick Note and now five new babies that have bred in the pond,(oh and 1 plastic duck, 1 rubber duck, used to be 2 rubber ducks but the lawn mower at...
seanmckinney seanmckinney
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  • Posted on: 6/7/2004 10:26
Re: going big #5
I would definately buy a another pump then, filters are not my thing really but it has to be able to take the flowrate that your fall wants otherwise you end up complicateing the plumbing.
The shop has probably advised you based of a filtering requirement, 1/2 a pond volume per hour is the recommended minimum, but your flowrate is likely to excced that required for filtration. Some filters include UV's to aid combatting algae, I cant comment, nor can I comment of makes of filter, the commercial filter I have is a hozelock something bought because it was on offer and cheaper than I could buy the components.

To get back to plumbing etc
Personally I dont like cables or pipes over the sides of the pond and I therefore do what I can to avoid this. This may mean none submersible pumps and the plumbing going through the pond wall which is probably a bit much for your size of pond. So you are left with a sumbersible.
As I said I think you want between 50 and 100 gph per inch of fall width, I would suggest you limit yourself to 6" of width otherwise the flowrate will get excessive for the pond.

So thats the first thing you need to decide, how wide do you want the falls, that sets the minimum flowrate. Again you need to surf the web to check my figures, and watch out for sites quoting US gph, 1 UK gal is equal to 1.2 US gal so US flowrates will be numerically 1.2 times greater than UK flowrates.
You then need to decide the height of the falls and the type of filter, ie upflow, down flow, horizontal flow, there are advantages and disadvantages to all and really you need to do you own reasearch on this but your choice has implications for the size of pump you will require. If you go for down flow the highest point in your system where water and air meet is likely to be the top of the filter.
The height of this point ABOVE THE POND SURFACE is the max actual lift that the pump has to supply, this will be above the top of the fall since, more or less by definition, the outlet from the filter is near the bottom of the filter chamber. If you use an upflow filter you will need to us an oneway valve to stop the contents of the filter draining back into the pond when the pump is switched off, there are alternatives to a one way valve but this post is getting long enough as it is, similar considerations may appliy to a horizontal filter.
Having established your flowrate and maximum actual lift you need to choose the pipe size, I assume this will be pond hose, the simplest thing to do is use the largest possible size that will fit the hose attachments of your pump but you havent choosen that yet so its a chicken and egg situation. Flow through pipes generates resistance to flow via friction etc and I outlined the way it works innthe previous post. This resistance adds to the pressure that the pump has to develop to drive a given flow rate, this added pressure is seen as added lift, if you like it adds to the height that the pump has lift the water, this is known as pipe losses. The sum of the actual lift and the pipe losses are known as the total lift, total head etc. The greater the total head a given pump has to supply the less that pump's flowrate will be.
At what I imagine you will want, around 300 gph, I suggest a minimum hose size of 1", 25mm, as this should keep the resistance, pipe losses, fairly low but as I said bigger would be better. The things that attach the hose to the pump and filter are called hose tails and these will frequently be stepped to accommodate several sizes of pipe, cut off any smaller unused hose tails.
As you can see the pump is probably the last thing you should buy.
I think Hozelock and Oase publish pipe loss charts for their hoses and will email or post them to you, I have one here but I have forgotten whose it is. Going by that at about 300 gph
20mm hose produces about 1.2" of pipe loss per foot of pipe
25mm " " about 1/3" " " " " " " "
32mm " " about 0.2" " " " " " " "
40mm " " about 0.1" " " " " " " "


So when you work out what length of pipe you want you can work out your total head and walk into the shop saying I what a pump that produces X gph at Y feet of head.

Also consider the power a pump consumes and surf the manufacturers website as these frequently give power consumptions and flowrate against total head information. Personally I wont buy pumps off the web even if I have to pay more locally because if any thing goes wrong returning the pump can do away with the cost saving.
Goldy Goldy
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  • Posted on: 6/7/2004 13:42
Re: going big #6
Quote:
Chopper wrote
Personally I wont buy pumps off the web even if I have to pay more locally because if any thing goes wrong returning the pump can do away with the cost saving.
good point there
chopper chopper
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  • Posted on: 7/7/2004 20:09
Re: going big #7
Hi All

News Flash - fish found gripping to sides of pond!!!!!!

Got a filter and got a pump, pump is so strong blew head off the top of it.

Went to Glovers fish shop (fenton stoke-on-trent) who are really helpful and i think the bloke who serves me has realised that i was blonde in a former life. told him what id got and what i wanted. Came away with a ecopower filter which will do 500 gallons and a libal pump that works the fountain and takes water to filter etc etc. got all the pipes and clips and he assembled most of it for me.

Spent all afternoon re wiring laying underground cables and building rockery to form water from filter along 4ft of guttering hidden under strategicly placed rocks.

Fish seem happy, so im happy.

thanks sean and all for advice

chopper

Owner of 10 goldfish, Custard, Speedy, Spot, Natalie, Colonel, Goldy, Bulldog, Blackie and Pete and Sick Note and now five new babies that have bred in the pond,(oh and 1 plastic duck, 1 rubber duck, used to be 2 rubber ducks but the lawn mower at...
seanmckinney seanmckinney
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  • Posted on: 8/7/2004 10:18
Re: going big #8
Re "re wiring laying underground cables". This cabling

IS IN A CONDUIT or ARMOURED, ISNT IT!!!!

My wiring is lax but I know the risks I am taking, however even I wouldnt bury unarmoured cable with out it being in a conduit. Its ALL to easy to forget where it is especially in what sounds like a rockery or flower bed and put a spade or trowel or fork through it. The danger being you cut into just the live. Severing the whole cable should blow the fuse, just cutting into the live would make the tool live.
Re "and building rockery to form water from filter along 4ft of guttering hidden " check very carefully for leaks and plants that will grow into the guttering thereby causing wicks or obstructions with subsequent overflows. However guttering does sound quite a neat solution to an awkward problem.
chopper chopper
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  • Posted on: 8/7/2004 11:29
Re: going big #9
Hi Sean

Yes cable is in a 2" water pipe of 1/4 inch thickness underground. reason ive used this thickness is that if any of the electrical equipment has to be removed etc i can take the plug off the garage end and retract it and then rethread it through (thats the idea anyway)

Man in shop says to run filter with UV off for the first 4 weeks to allow the good bacteria to build up. Water already seems a bit clearer this morning.

thanks again

Chopper

Owner of 10 goldfish, Custard, Speedy, Spot, Natalie, Colonel, Goldy, Bulldog, Blackie and Pete and Sick Note and now five new babies that have bred in the pond,(oh and 1 plastic duck, 1 rubber duck, used to be 2 rubber ducks but the lawn mower at...