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Fishlover Fishlover
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  • Posted on: 5/6/2005 10:40
Recurring nightmare #1
Hi,
Having been out to feed the fish this morning, I am devastated to discover that my Sarasa Comet Swifty has the beginnings of what looks like mouthrot.

As I have already mentioned before, I lost two fish last year to ulcers, one of which also developed mouthrot.
I don't know what I'll do if this goes the same as last year. I tried everything then but to no avail, and have got a horrible feeling it's going to happen all over again.
My goldfish Cat has still got the sore on her head too, even though I used the Medifin-I thought it was getting smaller but looking at it this morning it doesn't seem to be getting better.

What am I doing wrong? My readings are perfect and the pond water is crystal clear. Also my Orfe Louis (touch wood) seems fine.

I don't want to start adding all sorts of medicines like I did last year on different people's advice, but then again I don't want to do nothing and risk losing my fish because of this, so I'm in a Catch 22 situation and don't know what to do for the best.

I have put some photos on the gallery.
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/ ... 0/photo.php?lid=425&cid=3
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/ ... 0/photo.php?lid=424&cid=3
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/ ... 0/photo.php?lid=423&cid=3
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/modules/ ... 0/photo.php?lid=426&cid=3

The way I feel at the moment I feel like jacking it all in and not carrying on with the new pond-I'm so frustrated and fed up and I don't know why this is happening.

Maz
"Fish are Friends"
vchawker vchawker
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  • Posted on: 5/6/2005 11:25
Re: Recurring nightmare #2
Maz, I would try only one treatment at a time to avoid what you said happened last year. Try not to feel so downhearted , at least you are aware of the problem and can start to do something about it.

I have recently bought some Tetra Pond Medifin. This is what it says on the back:

TetraPond Medifin- pond fish disease treatment.
Combats the majority of external bacterial, fungal and parasitic fish diseases.
Acts as a reliable preventative treatment.
Treats 5750 litres (1250 litres).
Safe to use with orfe, sterlets and all pond fish.

Active ingredients per 100ml:
Formaldehhyde 4,762g
Malachite green oxalate 90,0g

I bought 3 bottles off Ebay recently, as I read somewhere that they were starting to ban stuff like this through fear of limited evidence of carcinogenic effects!

I don't have any disease present at the moment, but like to keep the stuff in stock just in case . I buy the pond treatments, as its much cheaper, you use less and it lasts much longer for my aquarium, than the equivalent smaller bottles of aquarium preparations. (I also use pond dechlorinator at water changes, with no problems!!).

I would try this Tetra Medifin, as it seems to treat everything, therefore taking the guesswork out of what is causing the problem. You would only be using one type of treatment, avoiding what happened to you last year.

If you are really stuck getting hold of this Medifin, (as I don't know how easy it is to get hold of at LFSs now), email me a private message through my member page and I'll try and help you out with some.

Good Luck, hope I've helped! (but please don't jack the pond in!)
"Oh, to be a fish!!!"
Fishlover Fishlover
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  • Posted on: 5/6/2005 11:29
Re: Recurring nightmare #3
thanks vchawker,
I have actually tried using Medifin twice, but with no results-do you think i should use it a third time?
Maz
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vchawker vchawker
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  • Posted on: 5/6/2005 11:33
Re: Recurring nightmare #4
I can't see it doing any harm. I would if it was me.

Did you use it in the correct amounts for the litres in your pond?

Or could the use of other treatments at the same time last year have cancelled it out?

I hope you can get the mouth rot sorted soon Maz, let us know how you get on .
"Oh, to be a fish!!!"
captk captk
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  • Posted on: 5/6/2005 12:06
Re: Recurring nightmare #5
Hi Maz,

I wasn't a member then so I don't know what happened last year or what people have recommended you to use. I know it can be very confusing and frustrating when nothing seems to work but it doesn't mean that a solution is not out there. It just need to be looked at from a different angle.

If you would be so kind to brief me again with some of your background info and what meds have you used then maybe I can put a few pieces of the jigsaw together. Nothing to lose.

OBTW, from the ingredient list for the medifin, it is mostly melachite green with a bit of formalin. It wouldn't do much as an antibacterial but it would be effective against fungus and some parasites. Yes, it is true that melachite green is a known carcinogen and it is a copper based dye which is very toxic so use with care. Wear glove when dosing and avoid any fumes.

From the little bit of info I got from this thread, it sounds like a nasty strain of flexibactor or myxobacter. I'll need more info to confirm this.

Never give up, never give in!
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Fishlover Fishlover
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  • Posted on: 5/6/2005 12:15
Re: Recurring nightmare #6
Sorry vchawker, I think I must have confused you.
I meant I have tried the Medifin twice already on this occasion, not last year. That is why I don't know whether it's ok to try it a third time as I have put it in for two Sundays on the run, last week and the Sunday before.
In fact Swifty has only just shown signs of the mouthrot even though the Medifin was first put in to cure Cat two weeks ago, so I don't know how he's managed to get it.
Maz
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Fishlover Fishlover
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  • Posted on: 5/6/2005 12:35
Re: Recurring nightmare #7
Thanks captk,

I have not long joined the forum either-I meant people from my local Aquatic stores were giving me advice.
Last year I started off by using a general tratment calledPond Goldfish Treatment by Interpet. When this didn't help I used a specific Interpet treatment called "Anti Fungus and Bacteria Treatment", then I tried using Aquaium salt which again didn't help, just killed some of my plants. I then tried Melafix, and the two fish that died started to gasp at the surface. The last resort was to try that Aquagel I mentioned-the ointment. The next day two of my fish died, so I just stopped using treatments altogether. Swifty and Cat, who only had small ulcers recovered gradually and have been fine up till now, but it was the same time last year that all of this happened, so I think it may have something to do with the warm weather.
And that's the story so far-is there anything you can suggest doing, or is it best to not add further treatments and hope the fish will get over it on their own as these two did last year? I've also got to consider my Orfe, as they do not take well to treatments added to the pond do they?
I really do feel very depressed and at a loss as to the best thing to do for them. The new pond is nowhere near finished, so if there's possibly a problem with the current pond I don't have anywhere to transfer them to as our garden is very tiny.
Oh God, I'm sorry for rambling on a bit here but I really am at the end of my tether!
Maz
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captk captk
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  • Posted on: 5/6/2005 12:45
Re: Recurring nightmare #8
It's cool, Maz. Let it all out. You are amongst friends. We have all had a bad pond/tank day so it is okay to vent.

Okay, let's take a step back. When you say it happened the same time last year, what is the weather like around this time? Please remember that I'm an Aussie, I only know wonderful warm sun drenched days with nothing but blue skies for as far as the eyes can see. Ooops, sorry, that was the travel commerical.

But seriously, was it going from a very cold winter to a warmer clime in a short period of time?

Have you touched the pond bottom recently? Do you ever clean the pond bottom? Is it bare bottom or gravel/rocks? Lots of gunk and mulm down there?

I was going to add in my last post that never take the meds label for granted. If you believe every word they say, you would never need another meds other than a bottle of melafix and pimafix! As for LFS ninnies, well, need I say more!
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Fishlover Fishlover
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  • Posted on: 5/6/2005 13:02
Re: Recurring nightmare #9
Thanks for that captk!
Right, last year the weather did heat up suddenly, so that might have have been the reason then, but to be honest this year it has been a gradual rise, and the fish have been fine up till now.
I haven't touched the pond bottom, no. The pond is a year and ten months old, and I read in one of my books that it is best to clean it only every few seasons, as long as the water quality is good, which it is.
As I said before, we are hoping to have the new pond up and running this year, so I was going to clean it out when the fish are safely installed in the new pond.
There are pebble beaches on either side, and obviously these have slipped dwn to the bottom in places, but I thought that would be good for the nitrifying bacteria to grow on-I never have any problems with Ammonia, Nitrite or Nitrates. There is a lot of mulm though, which I don't disturb-do you think I need to get rid of it?
Thanks again
Maz
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captk captk
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Re: Recurring nightmare #10
Righto, that's something to work with.

I'm afraid I'll have to bore you with some background info on winter/spring transition and the fight between good and bad bacterias. I hope you are sitting comfortably.

The transition between a very cold northern winter to a warmer springtime is always of real concern to ponders. The reason is that the fish's immune system slows down at around 10*C and eventaully will shut down completely if the temp continues to drop. That would be okay as most parasites and bacterias are also suppressed below this temp. But it gets tricky when the temp start to rise. Parasites and bacteria reacts much more quickly to a rising temperature trend than your fish. Their immune system don't just start up with a minute's notice especially if the water has been close to freezing. So bacterias and parasites can take full advantage of the weakened fish during that transitional period. Lots of ulcer disease, fluke, costia infestation happens around that time.

Separate to this but just as important to note is that there is a very fine line separating the growth of good nitrifying bacteria vs the bad aeromonas. All it takes is a drop in oxygen level and this can be in and around the bottom of the pond where all the mulm gathers and aeromonas will out perform the good bugs. There is little water current down there. The decaying organic matters consume even more of the precious oxygen and it is the perfect breeding ground for aeromonas.

You are correct in saying that we should not stir up the bottom carelessly as it will most likely release H2S and aeromonas but on the other hand, it is the breeding ground for the bad bugs so the fish are exposed to a higher concentration of them in the water. Goldfish and koi are bottom feeders so they will naturally want to root around the mud and gunk and all it takes is a minor cut to their mouth or skin and the flexibactor will have a foot in the door, so to speak.

OBTW, never assume crystal clear water with perfect NH4,NO2, NO3 readings is totally harmless. We can't see fungal spores nor bacterias nor a hundred other toxic chemicals. If the fish are happy and healthy then we can say the water is good but once a fish shows any symptoms, all bets are off.

I suppsoe ultimately, if it is a case of nasty bugs in the mulm then you will have to either treat the fish in container where you can maintain pristine condition or remove the source of the aeromonas.
I know enough to know that I don't know enough