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Asumel Asumel
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 15:06
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #41
Right posting that data of the minimum size to have no health risks to the fish is fine. you are evidently not listening to what I have said they looked at the health risk only!
so not going back on anything I have stated many times that a tank larger than this would be needed to support the welfare of the fish. It is very hard to quantify welfare so the best thing to look at are health risks.
To people reading this thread I'm sure the only reason they are getting confused is because you are arguing the same point as me, the only difference is what I say is backed up by something reliable. and you have no need to reiterate data from your goldfish care sheet as in a large proportion of my comments have agreed with it!
"while the science says the fish stayed alive and grew, that does not translate into the context of a high standard of care in a long-term domestic set up."
You obviously don't understand that is not what they were measuring. It is almost impossible to quantify welfare and thus hard to show trends ect. so by showing a minimum tank size which does not cause any physical deformities and allows for natural growth and behaviour helps to establish sizes which are supported by facts not speculation by someone who has kept fish for a few years.
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Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 15:35
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #42
Esactly what I thought you were doing. You've missed the main point of this site, which is to promote decent standards of care, not "the minimum" and to offer general advice that covers more than one specific point (health effects) in this case. I have no dispute with the findings of the study, but they are out of the context of the arena you're quoting them in.

EDIT: Done arguing the same point 'til I'm blue in the face --- going to do something useful instead.
Asumel Asumel
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 15:46
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #43
Quote:

Fishlady wrote:
Esactly what I thought you were doing. You've missed the main point of this site, which is to promote decent standards of care, not "the minimum" and to offer general advice that covers more than one specific point (health effects) in this case. I have no dispute with the findings of the study, but they are out of the context of the arena you're quoting them in.

EDIT: Done arguing the same point 'til I'm blue in the face --- going to do something useful instead.

Again you have missed my point entirely, I was supporting the sites welfare using tested facts to back up your 180L min point in your care sheet. I have given the reference Read the paper yourself and you will see that it is in the context and supports the care sheet well.
It seems to me that there are a few MOD's on here that are stuck in their ways and are not willing to listen to anything else, regardless whether they are being supported or argued against.
there are others who are open minded and realise the links that can be drawn from research done.
Yeah I think I am done too as I feel like I'm trying to give creationists proof of creationism and they are denying it because its scientific.
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suey2 suey2
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 17:43
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #44
Quote:

Asumel wrote:
Suey2- I would imagine not many of them but this study was an aim to find the MINIMUM tank size that would not cause any problem with the fish and that is it, proved by science. Obviously that Min has to be exceeded to improve the living conditions for the fish
The 110L is not far off the 180L on the caresheet, and again is providing a MINIMUM tank size that would not cause helth problems with the fish the extra 70L allows them to move and live well.


No need to 'shout', we're all quite capable of reading

How long did this study go on for? Anything less than 40 years and I don't see how it can have conclusively proved anything about goldfish I'm curious to know how a tank that a fully grown adult would struggle to turn round in, let alone swim in, doesn't cause any problems? I can only agree with FL that the info in this study appears to be being placed out of context in this particular thread

I'm all for things being scientifically proven, and I appreciate certain members may have various qualifications that may or may not give them an insight into areas that others haven't encountered. However, as in all walks of life it would be dull if we were all the same I too have a healthy set of graduate and post graduate qualifications and several years fishkeeping 'real' experience, but it doesn't make me an expert Taking scientifically proven concepts out of context can cause problems and I'm afraid I think there is a danger of this happening in this thread Just because something has been proved for a given reason by one scientific study does not make it indisputable fact IMHO, science should be about keeping an open mind and assessing all further available facts and information and amending theories etc. as knowledge and understanding develops. Not about saying 'right, that's that sorted, next' and never going back to reassess, review etc.

I'm disappointed that anyone thinks certain of us are stuck in our ways I'd suggest maybe taking a little step back and reassessing the situation I think it's fair to say it's been quite an 'intense' thread recently and a little reflection on the things that have been said so far would be good for all of us who are taking an interest in this issue

As an aside, the more I keep goldies and the more I learn about them I find myself increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of a common goldie being in 180 litres. We are after all talking about a very big carp capable of reaching a foot or more in length with the body mass to rival a large oscar, the swimming ability and turn of speed to rival a massively oversized danio and an intelligence level not far off, maybe even equal to, an oscar. Not to mention the life expectancy of 20-40 years.
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Violet Violet
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 18:11
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #45
Goodness, quite a debate.

For the avoidance of doubt on FKs stance on minimum (*) tanks sizes, all mods and advisers here generally stick to the following rules when advising new fish keepers.

These have been very seriously debated, discussed and have had personal experience 'applied'.

Single Male Betta - 45 litres min

Small shoal (6) Temperate/Tropical fish who grow to no more than 5-6cm - 60 litres min

Fancy Goldfish - 140 litres for the first fish with an extra 45 litres for each extra fish. The tank needs to have a minimum length of 3 feet to allow swimming room. External filtration a must.

Common Goldfish - 180 litres for the first fish with an extra 55 litres) for each extra fish. The tank needs to have a minimum length of 4 feet. External filtration a must.

Any reader will find all articles/care sheets comply accordingly.

FK aims to give new comers consistent advice and mods/advisers agree to this for the above reason. For more advanced or experienced keepers, the FK team may bend this general guidance depending on the situation.

Example here:
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles ... es-and-general-advice.htm

(*) - note minimum. In some cases (depending on stock and species) even these could be considered too small, in fact.
Please fill in your personal profile if you are posti
Asumel Asumel
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 18:12
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #46
Suey2,
Evidently I do have to highlight certain aspects of my writing as you are not as you are still missing my point.
I will quote from he paper here as it ran until " the goldfish reached adult size" If you are not looking at anything other than effects one the growth and any deformities growth to their maximum size is all you need. yes I suppose you would need 40 years to assess the welfare but if you even read what I have been saying its is almost impossible to quantify and thus best to research things which are easier to measure (deformities ect).
I do wonder if your graduate and postgraduate Quals are in any way scientific based?
It does amuse me however that you think I am using this as an "indisputable fact", I am mearly quoting the best fitting hypothesis which has been proven at this time. In science of course you need an open mind but you can't go against the current set of facts. And if you had any scientific background you would know that the whole scientific process is about assessing and re-producing experiments done by others to re-enforce our understanding.
I disagree, As soon as anyone has mentioned anything other than what you all say every post, even if it is backed up by proof, it gets shunned. maybe keep an open mind and consider reading the science behind it and consider an opinion which is supporting yours?
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Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 18:18
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #47
Please enlighten me as to how quoting a minimum tank size less than our recommended minimum of 180 litres is supporting us? 3.7L per fish cm equates to around 110 litres for a 30cm fish. I don't know where you learned to add up, but 110 is 70 litres or around 40% less than 180 where I come from.
Asumel Asumel
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 18:22
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #48
Quote:

Fishlady wrote:
Please enlighten me as to how quoting a minimum tank size less than our recommended minimum of 180 litres is supporting us? 3.7L per fish cm equates to around 110 litres for a 30cm fish. I don't know where you learned to add up, but 110 is 70 litres or around 40% less than 180 where I come from.


Evidently Fishlady you need to put on some glasses or maybe go back to school?, as after quoting this value I have said that this would not cater for the welfare of the fish and have said that a tank bigger than this is needed, and have for a lot of the time have agreed with the caresheet value of 180L min
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suey2 suey2
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 18:34
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #49
Can we please step away from the personal insults. Thank you.

I didn't think I was missing your point, maybe I didn't make mine clearly enough though Goldies grow throughout their entire lives so I'm afraid for me to be personally convinced then a study would need to run until they died so we' be looking at 20-40 years. Plus you'd need a decent selection of individuals so you could average out the results. Etc. etc. I am keeping an open mind, but let's all try and do that

And I do have a BSc, but I don't feel the need to provide my CV
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Asumel Asumel
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 18:41
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #50
Quote:

suey2 wrote:
I didn't think I was missing your point, maybe I didn't make mine clearly enough though Goldies grow throughout their entire lives so I'm afraid for me to be personally convinced then a study would need to run until they died so we' be looking at 20-40 years. Plus you'd need a decent selection of individuals so you could average out the results. Etc. etc. I am keeping an open mind, but let's all try and do that

And I do have a BSc, but I don't feel the need to provide my CV

If you did really have a BSc you would know that any paper published will have replicates and use statistics to support or reject the hypothesis (at least if you went to a decent University).
FYI the paper used 100 individuals, is that enough for you? or would you like to re do it with 200? 300? maybe 1000?
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