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TetraLinz TetraLinz
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  • Posted on: 27/7/2008 8:30
Re: Clown Loach & Waterlife Medication #21
Quote:

Ickl Devil wrote:
PH7, Nitrate 5, Nitrite 0.3, Amonia 0.1.
I thought these were ok. What you think??


Sadly, no. They're not OK Ammonia and nitrite should always be 0 in a mature, fully cycled tank.

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Ickl Devil Ickl Devil
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  • Posted on: 27/7/2008 10:48
Re: Clown Loach & Waterlife Medication #22
Oh dear guys, I'm not doing well at all.

LHG thanks I've started reducing the temp and will get marine salt today. My local pet store doesn't have any UV's in but said if I'm not careful using UV I could kill of any good bacteria also. Very confused. I just want to do right.

TetraLinz the filter is only 5 weeks old so don't think will have full cycle yet will it?

Getting totally different info from shop than online. They said tank only needed to be stood a week and 5-6 new fish weekly thereafter. Never even mentioned quarantine

Def Ich though, my clowns both have spots and the one I noticed first now has 3. My rummys also have the odd one. Grrrr. Feel lousy. This could've been prevented if I'd done it right.
longhairedgit longhairedgit
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  • Posted on: 27/7/2008 12:46
Re: Clown Loach & Waterlife Medication #23
If the tank is already cycled , a UV system wont un-cycle it, but they are better used with external filters than internal ones. If however a tank isnt cycled properly and the media not already colonised a UV unit will hold up the cycle , perhaps even for many months. Uv units do kill bacteria indescriminately but can only kill whats in flow, so if its inline after the filter on the tube leading to outflow into the tank, the filter colony will still be multigenerationally reproducing and spreading on the media, and some bacteria in the tank will always survive refreshing that colony with new bacterial strains every so often. What you dont want is the uv inline to the inflow to the filter, that tends to stop the culture adapting over time and making it fragile.

A uv unit isnt always the best idea with undergravel systems either. Basically in marine sysyems with live rock and freshwater systems with large internal filters the media base for the bacteria is usually large and self perpetuating so its not a problem. When cycling a tank or using meds for those diseases that UV doesnt kill, you turn the unit off. In a cycled tank with external filtration theres no risk to filter bacteria using one though. Such notes of caution are usually passed out by people who dont understand bacterial colonisation. Once a culture is up and runningon filter media, you wont kill it off, its not like using a med in the water, there is only one point of contact in the uv chamber, thus the colony in the filter remains safe, and since whenever a filter is used probably 95% or more of beneficial bacteria will be in the filter , not actually in the tank water or decor, it really doesnt matter.

These a bit of crossover info that people get confused all the time. Its usually the pondkeepers confusing the aquarium owners. You could run a pond with no substrate that is large, the bacteria will live in a pond and a big UV unit designed for sterilisation rather than purely for aglae killing duties could affect its cycle, but aquaria
unless running on undergravel filtration just dont have the same dynamic. Wherever a decent sized filter is involved the colony will be in that filter in the highest concentration , and as far as UV is concerned , its almost impossible to kill because its protected in that location.

Your only ever really at risk of uncycling an aquarium with a UV unit if there isnt a cycled filter involved.So people wilth low substrate level undergravel filtration, and filterless undecorated substrate free ponds, and those practising archaic old style bowl culture (wqhich they shouldnt be doing anyway) could uncycle their water with an exceptionally highly rated UV unit, anyone else- not a chance.They are completely safe for use with most aquaria with decent size filters, especially with external filters, the only other condition of use worth entioning is that if you are trying to raise tiny fry like cichlid fry, its better not to have one in operation because it will limit the infusoria and aufwuch organisms that will provide the firstfoods of such tiny fish. Soon as the fry get to about 6 weeks old though, you can turn it back on again.

Basically as long as the aquarium isnt being run on caveman principles, or still under cycling, you can have one if you want one.Its the misconception that in a filtered tank the bacteria "live in the water" or "on the gravel" that starts the paranoia. In every filtered aquarium with a power filter or an external as oppose to undergravel filtration or no filter, the colony in its useful concentration will be in that filter, and the colony spreads over the media irrespective of the presence of UV or not.And if you dont have a self contained filter basic ones like fluval 3 internals, all the way up to the eheim 2080 pro 3's , then just get one! Thats just the state of modern technology, why grope about blindly in the dark ages taking risks to fish?


Anyone with med sensitive fish must surely realise that just about all of them need decent filtration and tanksize anyway, rays, knifefish, mormyrids, clown loaches, bagrid catfish, all pretty huge anyway, ergo -if your keeping them properly filtered as you should be - you CAN and SHOULD have a UV steriliser.
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Ickl Devil Ickl Devil
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  • Posted on: 27/7/2008 12:59
Re: Clown Loach & Waterlife Medication #24
By heck that's an answer, gosh you really know your stuff. Thankyou. My cycle isn't quite finished yet. I've 0.3 nitrite and 0.1 ammonia. I test weekly so am hoping to have this rectified soon.

Fingers crossed my Clowns make it.
longhairedgit longhairedgit
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  • Posted on: 27/7/2008 13:09
Re: Clown Loach & Waterlife Medication #25
Good luck with the fish, hopefully the salt will do the job for you, but it does often fail , so if it does come to taking a risk with sensitive fish id be more likely to err to esha exit than protozin, but still at half doses. Lets hope that cycle finishes soon, then if you have the cash you can fit UV and not have to worry again.
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EagleC EagleC
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  • Posted on: 27/7/2008 14:05
Re: Clown Loach & Waterlife Medication #26
Quote:

Ickl Devil wrote:
Oh dear guys, I'm not doing well at all.

LHG thanks I've started reducing the temp and will get marine salt today.

Woah there! I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here but you're not planning to add marine salt to a freshwater tank with clown loaches in are you? That would be very bad!

Quote:
My local pet store doesn't have any UV's in but said if I'm not careful using UV I could kill of any good bacteria also. Very confused. I just want to do right.

TetraLinz the filter is only 5 weeks old so don't think will have full cycle yet will it?

Getting totally different info from shop than online. They said tank only needed to be stood a week and 5-6 new fish weekly thereafter. Never even mentioned quarantine

yup, the local fish stores are generally one of the worst places to get advice about fishkeeping from. Sad but true Some shops are good but most are stuck in the 60's with their advice and give wrong advice either because they dont know any better or because its easier to make sales if they oversimplify things and treat fish as disposable objects.

Quote:
Def Ich though, my clowns both have spots and the one I noticed first now has 3. My rummys also have the odd one. Grrrr. Feel lousy. This could've been prevented if I'd done it right.

ok, with clown loaches you can treat with UV but it might not work. You can treat with half doses of protozin or similar medication but you might kill them with meds or you can temperature treat them BUT in order for this to work you need three things.
1/ The temperature needs to be slowly raised to 86F. As the temperature rises the ich lifecycle accelerates and as LHG said they reproduce quicker but most (but not all) Ich varients cannot reproduce if the temperature goes above 85F
2/ Oxygenation. Massive ammounts of surface aggitation, a large airpump and stone and plenty of flow all round the aquarium. As the temperature rises the ability for the water to hold oxygen reduces so you need to ensure the water is kept saturation with oxygen from top to bottom.
3/ A Ich parasite that is not immune to high temperatures. Nothing you can do about this, just hope your not unlucky.

It should take 4 days to kill all the ich in this manner.
Ickl Devil Ickl Devil
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  • Posted on: 27/7/2008 14:19
Re: Clown Loach & Waterlife Medication #27
Hi EagleC I did mean salt, don't know if it's called marine salt, I could be just confusing things .. I meant the salt that is used as a tonic for treating fish. I'm grateful for the advice regarding temperature treatment. I increased the temp in the tank thinking the Ich couldn't survive at a higher temp. Think I'll stick with the temp raise for now for a couple of days as it's still very early stage white spot. I'm keeping a close eye so if things do get worse at all I'll take my chance with a half dose water treatment.

Thanks for advice, I feel like the shop took me for a right sucker, they clearly just wanted the money. I've spent upwards of ?800 with them in the last month and trusted what they told me. Hey ho, live and learn eh!!!
EagleC EagleC
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  • Posted on: 27/7/2008 17:50
Re: Clown Loach & Waterlife Medication #28
If your going to treat with temperature make sure its over 86F, anything less will just encourage reproduction. Much over and you'll suffocate the fish. Can't stress that enough.

I think clown loaches can tollerate low levels of freshwater tonic salt (marine salt contains all sorts of other things too). Disolve the salt fully in fresh dechlorinated water before adding to the tank.

Good luck.
Ickl Devil Ickl Devil
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  • Posted on: 28/7/2008 10:49
Re: Clown Loach & Waterlife Medication #29
I've got the temp just over 86 and so far so good. The rummy has lost all his spots and of my two precious clowns there's only 1 spot left between them WOOHOO. I used some tonic 3 days ago as my Betta was looking bloated and I suspected constipation. The clowns showed no adverse affect so used it again yesterday as one of my clowns was showing real signs of sluggishness and general off colour. This morning they're both back to their active selves again.

Fingers crossed I've caught things in time to be able to put them right and we're back on the road to recovery

My fiance went to the pet store yesterday to see what he could get and came back with ... you guessed it PROTOZIN. I don't know why I'm so suprised. He said he told the guy in the store it was for clowns and was told "yeah that'll do the trick!!" What a set of numpties.

Thanks for your support. Was really upset last couple of days. Talking to you guys really helped me feel like I could sort things out. THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!
longhairedgit longhairedgit
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  • Posted on: 28/7/2008 13:38
Re: Clown Loach & Waterlife Medication #30
Hate to put a damper on it but it will be at least another two days until you know if youve got away with it or not. It takes that long before the new ich lumps start to become visible if they survived. The adults cant be killed you see, we can only kill the next generation. At those temps the adults die quicky because they die when they reproduce, not because youve killed them, because you wont have. Now your waiting to see if the baby ich made it or not.
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