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merpig merpig
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  • Posted on: 22/5/2020 21:38
Re: Weird string of unrelated issues? Help with goldfish treatment #11
So unfortunately my partner was not super thrilled about the 90l bucket on our living room floor when the fish inside had completed treatment, and against better judgment (and advice!) I replaced the two that have undergone treatment back in the tank (having drip acclimated just in case) on 18/05.

Initially I was thrilled that the treated oranda and ranchu were extremely active and displaying none of the symptoms that led me to treat in the first place, bar a tiny amount of fungus on the ranchu's mouth which has not changed for months (teeny tiny, doesn't impede eating, just won't shift no matter what). So I was pretty satisfied.

This continued for approx 2 clear days after which all the behaviours - lethargy and heavy breathing for the ranchu, bottom sitting for the oranda - reappeared, along with worsening of the ryukin's swim bladder issue which is still relatively mild and could be a coincidence of course. All the symptoms are less prevalent than before I treated but escalating quickly to the point today both of the two treated fish have spent almost all day on the bottom (still excited by anyone approaching the tank etc).

As suggested, I have carefully monitored my levels since they were reintroduced and they have not spiked at all - ammonia and nitrite have held steady at 0, nitrate sits somewhere between 10 and 20ppm and a water change is due tomorrow.

To me, this suggests that whatever the issue is, it is present in the tank, the kanaplex is somewhat effective against it, but there has been reinfection. Would you agree? Perhaps the reintroduction of the fish and the associated increase in hormones in the water has stressed the ryukin, accounting for the flare up in swim bladder...

So my current strategy is that the oranda and the ranchu go back in the tub for another round of treatment. Would doing a back to back double round (so 14 days) treatment be likely to adversely affect their kidneys at this stage? And then my plan was to leave them in the tub for at least 7 days after conclusion of the treatment as you originally suggested. Then perhaps to add one back to the tank, and if that goes smoothly, add the other say a week later?

I do still have the metroplex as an additional antibiotic treatment to try, although it is still yet to be delivered.

Hopefully this makes sense and sounds sensible?
fcmf fcmf
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  • Posted on: 22/5/2020 23:29
Re: Weird string of unrelated issues? Help with goldfish treatment #12
Sorry to read about this deterioration (and the pressure from your partner which has essentially led to this!). All very mysterious.

I'm probably 35% oriented towards seeing if it resolves the issues in the spare tub minus medication (which might help us establish the nature of it such as involvement of stress hormones) and 65% minded towards taking the risk and medicating again given the extent of deterioration, then try to establishthe degree to which different factors are involved.

If you do proceed with the medication now, then please emphasise to your partner that the fish will need to stay in this isolation tank during that AND afterwards for a fortnight to see how the situation evolves - just as important to maximise recuperation and work out what's going on as the medication stage. By then, the other antibiotic should have arrived and you can make a decision whether to treat with that at that stage or return the fish to the main tank one by one.

Hope that sounds a sensible plan.
merpig merpig
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  • Posted on: 23/5/2020 19:34
Re: Weird string of unrelated issues? Help with goldfish treatment #13
I’ve gone with the meds so they’re back in their bucket as of today!

They seem noticeably more active in there than in the tank. Really can’t figure this one out.

I’ll keep you posted!
merpig merpig
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  • Posted on: 27/5/2020 19:08
Re: Weird string of unrelated issues? Help with goldfish treatment #14
We are not yet done with the second round of antibiotics, but just thought it worth noting that the ryukin now solo again in the tank, has gradually improved since the other two returned to medicine tub. Today he’s noticeably more active and happier. Very odd.

The two in the bucket I’m less sure about. They seem to be bottom sitting 90% of the time but they’re still excited about food or me approaching the tub.

I worried that what I’m seeing is boredom rather than solely illness so added a few stones and floating plants (from the main tank) for some interest for them but not a great deal of excitement from them after the first five minutes!
merpig merpig
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  • Posted on: 4/6/2020 14:00
Re: Weird string of unrelated issues? Help with goldfish treatment #15
So the second round of kanaplex is now complete, and the two treated fish have remained in their hospital tub for four days following treatment.

I’m not convinced the treatment has worked tbh. They still seem to spend a lot of time bottom sitting and inactive, although there’s not a lot of enrichment in the tub.

The metroplex has now arrived and I’m considering going ahead with it instead of trying the two out back in the tank.

The instructions state it can just be added to water but can also be added to food. I think adding to the water would be a more reliable dose, is there any reason not to just add to the water?

In the meantime, the ryukin in the tank continues to be completely fine minus his minor swim bladder issues.
merpig merpig
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  • Posted on: 19/6/2020 16:38
Re: Weird string of unrelated issues? Help with goldfish treatment #16
Keeping this thread updated in case I eventually find a solution to all this!

We finished the course of metroplex and left the two treated fish in the medical tub with no meds for around 4 days before replacing them in the tank.

They've been in there for six days and they're ok so far.

The problem is the ryukin. He'd been fine throughout most of this, then yesterday was having a bad day for flipping upside down and really getting quite distressed that he couldn't swim to the bottom of the tank - putting a lot of effort into trying to chase food then floating to the top exhausted. We decided he couldn't be left in the main tank and put him in the medicine tub with a dose of kanaplex, thinking that whatever the other two had could be at play with him since he's never been treated.

Last night he wasn't able to get off the surface of the tub and his top fin was clear of the water.

This morning, the swim bladder issues seem to have completely resolved, but he's alternating between bottom sitting and swimming around frantically. His swimming is now perfectly controlled. I can't think why he's distressed as the sides of the tub are opaque, he has floating plants for cover, and the whole thing had actually been pushed under a desk overnight so he should have felt relatively secure.

This behaviour (sitting, followed by mad swimming, repeat) has continued all day. Levels in the tub are all at zero and there's a large air stone in there with him, water was treated with prime, and I drip acclimated him from the tank to the tub.

The rapid resolution of the swim bladder issues points to something digestive to me, maybe compounded by whatever was going on with the other two and causing the continued stress behaviour. Which points to soilent green not being helpful, despite being considered one of 'the best' foods for swim bladder.

This is all a bit discouraging. For almost a week I thought the tank was on the right track and now we're back to the tub!
merpig merpig
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  • Posted on: 14/7/2020 18:45
Re: Weird string of unrelated issues? Help with goldfish treatment #17
Possibly the last update on this thread as I am out of ideas.

They are now all back in the tank, the ryukin having finished a round of kanaplex.

His swim bladder issues seem to vary in severity by day. Sometimes he's fine, sometimes he's upside down at the top of the tank. His eating is good and his general behaviour ok.

The bottom sitting and weird behaviour I was concerned by with the oranda and ranchu have resolved. Unfortunately the oranda now is also showing swim bladder symptoms - bit different to the ryukin who is clearly struggling with excess buoyancy, the oranda just seems to occasionally pass out and float around upside down for a while before 'waking up' and swimming perfectly fine. This seems to get worse at night so I assume it's food/surface breathing related but honestly I don't know.

I'm going to remove my floating plants to discourage any foraging at the surface. This makes things boring for them as they have to have a bare bottom tank due to the ranchu's habit of eating substrate. Food wise I might try the repashy gold or other brands but given they're already eating a gel diet don't expect to see much improvement.

I don't really intend to do any more treatments as they've now all been through multiple rounds of antibiotics, anti fungals, and anti parasitics - the remaining issues are swim bladder in two of the three which I suppose could just be down to physiology, and fungus on the ranchu's mouth which is immune to all treatment and doesn't seem to be getting any worse so I can't really treat further. But honestly this tank is so disheartening and I'm very much tempted to abandon keeping fancy goldfish and move onto something more robust once my current stock pass on.
fcmf fcmf
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  • Posted on: 15/7/2020 23:00
Re: Weird string of unrelated issues? Help with goldfish treatment #18
I think you're correct and that no further medication is going to help - it's down to 'management' and palliative care now, but the duration of which this may continue for is completely unknown.

The worsening of the oranda's buoyancy at night may be due to him not being fully conscious to focus on being able to rectify himself - I noticed this in some elderly fish whose swimbladder function was declining.

Remind us once again of what they eat on a day-to-day basis and what times of day they get fed. I'm just wondering if the gel-based diet may be having any role in the buoyancy difficulties and possibly whether omitting gel-based food for a while might reveal this one way or the other.
merpig merpig
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  • Posted on: 16/7/2020 13:11
Re: Weird string of unrelated issues? Help with goldfish treatment #19
I agree re oranda maybe not being conscious and that causing the swim bladder issues to show themselves - it always seems to be in the evening as they’re all winding down for the night.

They get repashy soilent green twice a day, morning and evening. This seems to support them being more active than the previous regime which was feeding only once a day. They get peas to replace one of the repashy feedings approx 3x per week, usually in the evening. I fasted them on Sunday and saw a bit of an improvement on Monday, so I’m considering adding in a regular weekly fast day.

The floating plants have been removed for a couple of days but they seem conditioned to be at the surface now so I’m worried air breathing is contributing - the ryukin clearly finds it easier to hang out there due to excess buoyancy but the oranda just seems to have got used to being there! I don’t think there’s an issue with oxygenation as my ranchu almost never goes near the surface, and I’ve plenty of surface movement...

It’s a bit of a puzzle. All three fish are likely under 2 years old. I know it’s luck of the draw to some extent with fancies and swim bladder but this is some very bad luck!
fcmf fcmf
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  • Posted on: 16/7/2020 14:19
Re: Weird string of unrelated issues? Help with goldfish treatment #20
I think your plan for a fast day per week is good. Besides the Repashy and peas, I think it's important that the fish get nutrients that are appropriate for their species which won't be obtained alone from either of these. Additionally, it might be that there's a dietary element to the problems being encountered.

If I were you, I'd not feed the Repashy more than once a day and instead replace one of the helpings with sinking pellets specifically for goldfish, of which there are very useful suggestions at https://www.pro-shrimp.co.uk/94-food-b ... cies?id_category=94&n=149 You might need to introduce these gradually (eg replace a Repashy feed with one of these every few days initially, then alternate days, then daily) and tinker around with which is best in the morning or evening.

Hope that's helpful. Let us know, after a month or so of trying this, whether it makes any difference at all. Best of luck.