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suey2 suey2
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 11:58
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #31
I'm afraid my response to that (and I'm possibly being a bit grumpy this morning ) would be that I wonder how many fish kept in similar conditions didn't make it to live happily ever after? Of the fish that were given away as fairground prizes on the day my Howie was won 13 years ago - how many are alive now I wonder? Far too few would be my guess whereas really they all should be.

I've heard it all before, my mate kept a goldie in a bowl and it was all fiiiiine Well how about my grandad smoked for years, ate a rubbish diet and drank a heap of whisky every day and lived to 93? Shall I adopt that lifestyle too in the hope that I too will avoid cancer, heart disease, emphysema etc? I think not

There are have been hundreds of thousands of goldies kept in inappropriate conditions and far too many have not made it to their full life expectancy. I'm fed up of harking back to the 'good old days' let's move forward and try to really understand what these large carp actually need for long term accommodation, raise the game a little and aim for some best practice

*gets off soapbox*
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Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 12:00
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #32
The point I'm trying to make is that whilst fish can survive in inadequate conditions responsible fishkeeping sites should never advocate it as acceptable and on this site we aim to provide consistent advice that will ensure the best outcome for the fish. That may not be everyone's view, but on FK we try to advise based on the best welfare practices we are currently aware of for the good of the fish.

Citing examples of what actually constitutes poor welfare practice as having been successful (in the limited sense of fish surviving or in laboratory studies that have nothing in mind beyond proof of a specific theory) do the fish no favours and serve only to muddy the waters when attempting to help people provide good long term care for their pets. These are often distressed owners with sick fish as a result of being poorly advised elsewhere and they do not need further inconsistency from us.
suey2 suey2
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 12:00
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #33
Quote:

Asumel wrote:
Suey2
I got my last posts units mixed up it was 3.7L/cm not 3.7cm/L
bit of a mistype on my part :/ oops


Well that still only gives him 110l which is a pathetic amount for a foot long fish whose at least 7 inches deep in the body and about 2-3 inches wide and weighs well over 1lb 110 litres is about 80cm x 20 cm x 20cm - how's a fish the size of Howie going to turn round in there?
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finnipper finnipper
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 12:20
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #34
Suey, I'm not advocating that there was ever such a thing as the good old days, certainly our knowledge has increased dramatically over the years and there have been great advances in the hardware too.
But you can't ignore the fact that many fish did live lives which were longer than their wild counterparts even back then. I realise that when you care about the fish you want what is best for them and that's where it gets confusing because people start offering opinion as fact.
I seen it said on here several times that a five gallon tank is no use for keeping fish. Yet if you look you'll find many Killifish breeders use such tanks for maintaining pairs/trios of Killifish quite successfully.

For the record I do agree bigger is almost always better in many ways. Easier to maintain too.
suey2 suey2
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 12:30
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #35
My 'good old days' comment was more general really, there are posts all over the internet going on about 'I had x in y 'way back when' and it was all fiiiine'

Fish in captivity probably have lived longer than their wild counterparts for many years, my point is the ratio of those in captivity that did reach their appropriate life expectancy v those in captivity that didn't Goldies are a good example of a species where hundreds of thousands have been kept over the years and i'd guess only a tiny percentage have ever made to the life expectancy they should

If you think about this way, I won a fish from a fair when I was about 6, I'm now 39 so there's a strong possibility that had I cared for him properly in the intervening 33 years he'd still be here. He died after a few months IIRC. If all the goldies that ever entered the pet market made it to their full life expectancy you wouldn't be able to move in the UK for tripping over them, every house would have at least one, they'd be spilling out onto the streets It's the fact that so few make it beyond a couple of years that indicates that all is not right in goldfish care in general. There are hundreds in the stores every day, I'd love to know how many are actually sold every day, and then I'd love to know how many make it beyond a couple of years.

Stories like the one about the world's oldest goldie (Titch) are only newsworthy because it's not the norm whereas it really should be. What should be a surprise to people is when they die at two years old, not when they live to 40 "Fish kept appropriately lives to expected age" is hardly going to make the headlines
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finnipper finnipper
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Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #36
"Goldies are a good example of a species where hundreds of thousands have been kept over the years and i'd guess only a tiny percentage have ever made to the life expectancy they should".

It isn't just Goldies, while there is a group of fish keepers who buy books, join clubs, join forums ect they form a minority.
The general standard of fishkeeping hasn't moved on all that much at all. You only have to listen in to the conversations going on in any lfs to realise that little or no research ever goes on other than asking the vendor. Even that advice often gets ignored if it doesn't suit the hobbyist. If my lfs gets a tank full of baby redtailed catfish I guarantee they would all be sold within a couple of days. I've lost count of the number of times I've been told that "I used to keep fish but they kept dying so I packed it in". The good old days may not have been that great in reality but there is a lot of room for improvement even today.
cathie cathie
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 13:11
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #37
Quote:

finnipper wrote:
I've lost count of the number of times I've been told that "I used to keep fish but they kept dying so I packed it in". The good old days may not have been that great in reality but there is a lot of room for improvement even today.


Isn't it depressing. I am doing tank maintenance today, and my step-daughter has just asked me why my fish don't die like everyone else that she knows who has them heaven knows I am not at the cutting edge of fishkeeping
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suey2 suey2
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Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #38
Quote:

finnipper wrote:
? there is a lot of room for improvement even today.


Resized Image


Which is precisely the point I've somehow been failing to make for some time

Cathie, you are a fine example of a fishkeeper and there needs to be more like you It's like when people ask me why some of mine are so big - they're not 'big', they're normal!!!
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Asumel Asumel
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Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #39
Suey2- I would imagine not many of them but this study was an aim to find the MINIMUM tank size that would not cause any problem with the fish and that is it, proved by science. Obviously that Min has to be exceeded to improve the living conditions for the fish
The 110L is not far off the 180L on the caresheet, and again is providing a MINIMUM tank size that would not cause helth problems with the fish the extra 70L allows them to move and live well.


Fishlady- you evidently have no concept of science or the use of science in our society if you seriously believe this statement " (in the limited sense of fish surviving or in laboratory studies that have nothing in mind beyond proof of a specific theory)"
as for consistant advice, I have been giving the same advice as you saying that they need an area larger than the 110L to not cause any problems with health and to increase welfair last time I checked 180 was bigger than 110?
but for some reason as soon as I add some scientific background for the statements I have been making ( thus improving the reliability of my statements) you poopoo all of what I have been saying and seem to be rejecting the value of science in any area of our lives not just in fish keeping.
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Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 14:54
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #40
Irrespective of scientific proof that no damage occurred during the period of the study with the specific set of circumstances used, you have said that you would not use such data yourself as the basis for keeping fish and that it does not necessarily promote good welfare. May I ask then, if the aim of this site is to promote high standards of care and welfare for captive ornamental fish kept as pets (which it is), what the purpose is in introducing data that by your own admission is not what you would do and falls short of best practice in the real world, causing confusion for people genuinely seeking help? Why post something that is very plainly contentious when you almost always back away from it and say you wouldn't do it yourself? If you believe it really isn't the right thing to do what is the purpose in posting it at all?

That is why I believe these statements need to be in the Members area and not on the main areas of the site where the very many visitors we have looking for help who never register will conclude that such data is validated as good advice by its presence on the site. Had it been in the members are I doubt that the other mods would have been particularly concerned about reiterating the site's position as members are able to post back for clarification and join the discussion. I certainly don't relish spending time arguing the toss about such matters but feel compelled to point out that while the science says the fish stayed alive and grew, that does not translate into the context of a high standard of care in a long-term domestic set up.

One of the major problems we hear of time and time again from new fishkeepers is that there is so much conflicting information out there and they need some clarity when in a difficult position. With welfare as our main concern, we like to also be consistent in the advice we give and keep it in terms that can be acted on without long discussions that aren't relevant at that time.