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finnipper finnipper
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 10:39
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #21
When it comes down to stocking there are some things which have to be taken in to account.
Obvious things like gas exchange, room to avoid stressors and so on. After that it is a matter of opinion and it is difficult to prove one way is wrong.
Rather than quoting hard and fast rules about how much space is required (lets be honest this is a dynamic situation anyway depending on the size of the fish) I think it would be more useful to explain as fully as possible the reasoning behind the opinion, at least then there could be a sensible discussion and who knows people may actually learn something!!!
Asumel Asumel
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 10:47
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #22
Quote:

finnipper wrote:
When it comes down to stocking there are some things which have to be taken in to account.
Obvious things like gas exchange, room to avoid stressors and so on. After that it is a matter of opinion and it is difficult to prove one way is wrong.
Rather than quoting hard and fast rules about how much space is required (lets be honest this is a dynamic situation anyway depending on the size of the fish) I think it would be more useful to explain as fully as possible the reasoning behind the opinion, at least then there could be a sensible discussion and who knows people may actually learn something!!!

Well said,
that's what I have been trying to say ( rather badly by the sounds of it)
I was simply pointing out that these values quoted are within the recommendations on this site for MINIMUM tank size for the fish
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Miss Dorsal Miss Dorsal
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 10:55
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #23
Asumel, she has improved greatly after being moved out of the deep 160 litre tank. She's growing and so is Charlie. She was in 160 litres and is now in 84. The vet at CJ Hall also said changing the water level can help when I asked him about my male Ry, he has also responded to the water.level being lowered.


Here she is today, one issue she had at one stage was impacted eggs but seems Charlie sorted that out. Although she is at a 45 degree angle still.
Excuse the old pea shells, not long since fed them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDRGwV ... ture=youtube_gdata_player

Her tank isn't big enough, the amount of water changes I have to do to keep the nitrate level safe tells me that.
Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 10:56
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #24
Quote:

Asumel wrote:


With 4.5L/1cm is within your inch per gallon rule so there is nothing wrong with that statement. the recommendations of the US site at 3.7L/cm is still well within your inch per gallon recommendations


As I said before.......not for goldfish.....please find any post on this site (not including posts from newbies who've been misguided elsewhere) that recommends so little volume for goldfish. You won't find it because that guidance is, as previously stated only a very rough guide for small slim-bodied tropical fish which we use to explain to newbies in an easy to see form that they may be overstocked.

Our stocking advice is always far more detailed than that when we have specifics from posters of tank size, filtration and fish kept/desired as there isn't any "rule" that covers the complexity. However, for a site that ONLY deals with goldfish to advise that 3.7cm per L is adequate for goldfish is so far off realistic as to be laughable and is not what we would ever advise. See the article specifically written to advise on suitable tank size for goldfish.
Asumel Asumel
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 11:06
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #25
Quote:

Fishlady wrote:

As I said before.......not for goldfish.....please find any post on this site (not including posts from newbies who've been misguided elsewhere) that recommends so little volume for goldfish. You won't find it because that guidance is, as previously stated only a very rough guide for small slim-bodied tropical fish which we use to explain to newbies in an easy to see form that they may be overstocked.

Our stocking advice is always far more detailed than that when we have specifics from posters of tank size, filtration and fish kept/desired as there isn't any "rule" that covers the complexity. However, for a site that ONLY deals with goldfish to advise that 3.7cm per L is adequate for goldfish is so far off realistic as to be laughable and is not what we would ever advise. See the article specifically written to advise on suitable tank size for goldfish.

FL I don't understand why we are arguing about this we are saying the same thing, I am stating that there are minimum sizes which can support fish, and I think you will find in the posts that I have put I have said that I would go anywhere near these levels
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Fishlady Fishlady
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 11:11
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #26
Not arguing, maybe misinterpreting your posts where you seemed to be implying that we recommend a minimum for goldfish in line with the US site that misled MissD so badly. We don't.... the minimum we advise for goldfish is in the article above. Basically, this thread was about suitable tanks for goldfish.
Asumel Asumel
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 11:21
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #27
Evidently so, I was saying that the minimum tank size recommended for any fish on this site was less that that recommended by the US site. I also said that there are obvious changes that need to be made of fish to care for their welfare.
Coincidently I have been doing a bit of digging around in the science and the value of 3.7cm/L quotes by the US site was the density found by Kleszczyńska (2004)that goldfish display complete growth and show no deformities. well close it was 3.6/L in the paper. so the US site probably based its recommendations on that.
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suey2 suey2
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 11:47
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #28
Sticking with goldies, the size per volume of water theory can be thrown out of the water (if you'll excuse the pun ) as far as I'm concerned. 3.7cm per litre refers to total length and completely disregards anything about body bulk, biomass, oxygen requirements, the nature of the fish etc. Howie is over 30cm long so applying the 3.7cm per litre rule gives him a tank of less than 10 litres. So as you can see, it really doesn't work! I don't think I could fit him in there even if he died and I stuffed and mounted him

Stocking densities need to be considered in the light of many variables, these variables vary further depending on the species in question. There is no hard and fast 'one rule fits all' that can be applied across the board. I personally find stocking rules can cause more harm than good, far too many people seem determined nowadays (and this is just a general observation) to cram as many fish as possible into the volume they have available so will find a rule that suits what they want rather than thinking about the bigger picture and finding a stocking density that suits the fish they have.

Anyone reading this might be interested in this article we put together for some further 'food for thought':
http://injaf.org/articles-guides/unde ... ing-fish-stocking-guides/
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finnipper finnipper
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 11:49
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #29
OK playing devils advocate for a while:

When I was 7yrs old my gran bought me a goldfish bowl complete with 4 goldfish. The fish didn't suffocate which indicates that there was sufficient gas exchange at the surface, they didn't immediately keel over and die and I had them for about three years like that before transferring them to my first little pond.

Obviously I wouldn't advocate keeping them like that now but it does indicate that some of the dire warnings about tank size are being over stated. Which is why I asked for the reasoning behind the recommendations.
Otherwise these recommendations are going to end up being repeated parrot fashion with no one knowing why. The explanation behind any recommendation is important otherwise it is just an opinion with little value.
Asumel Asumel
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  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 11:53
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #30
Suey2
I got my last posts units mixed up it was 3.7L/cm not 3.7cm/L
bit of a mistype on my part :/ oops
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