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Goldnugget Goldnugget
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  • Posted on: 14/1/2009 10:26
Re: 40 ltr Tropical tank needs bottom feeders/plecos????? #41
Couldn't agree more, the wider message is that it is far from impossible to know how fish will react with each other before you get them, it's very easy with help from sites like this and a bit of reading to research the needs of your fish and stock appropriately. Very easy, just takes a little bit of forethought.

Fish as with any other animal shouldn't be exposed to trial and error stocking with the thought that if it doesn't work you can move them on. Pets are for life and its our duty to ensure that life is as long and happy as possible.

The initial impact of this kind of info comes as a bit of a shock to most, pretty much everything you've been told by your average pet shops can go out of the window and you can truly develop beyond 'the norm' in this hobby. There's a link below my signature for fishless cycling help which will tell you why it's so important, the key message is we never advocate fish cycling unless it can't be avoided, why risk causing harm when you can do it another way???

Anything you need clarifying or want to ask about don't hesitate Liz...

Oh and remember, one of the biggest principles of fishkeeping, the only 'safe range' for fish is 0 Ammonia, 0 NitrITE and under 40 NitrATE (<20 preferable), no other range, no other reading at all is safe, it will and does cause harm. This is why fish cycling is no longer considered ethical.
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ezeepzee ezeepzee
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  • Posted on: 14/1/2009 19:38
Re: 40 ltr Tropical tank needs bottom feeders/plecos????? #42
I am sideing 110% with Lizzleton on this one. Although i may be relativly new to fishkeeping, i have had a lot of success.

It is impossible to find out the information you require. People are very prepared to tell you how to cycle your tank, and make sure the water levels are okay, but when it comes to stocking questions, its hard to get details of what actually works. This is the same for any pet stores i have found, along with various internet forums.

example : Here

As regards your 40 litre tank, like Lizzleton i have had a lot of success with tetras and bettas. They seem to keep to themselves and i have never experienced fin nipping.


Im in no position to advise on plecos, all i know is they can grow MASSIVE so maybe a 40 litre is too small.

As regards your betta, Neons seem to work very well from my own experience

Andy.
Goldnugget Goldnugget
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  • Posted on: 14/1/2009 20:07
Re: 40 ltr Tropical tank needs bottom feeders/plecos????? #43
But we're more than prepared to answer any stocking questions you have and give you specific answers so therefore it's far from impossible!

I'm not sure I understand where your coming from... If you don't get an answer post again for someone to see, we don't see everything and things can get missed, it doesn't mean people here don't know... The thread you linked, EagleC asked for some suggestions of fish you like, it's easier for you to produce a list of fish you like and we tell you what are compatible rather than us just pick species out of hundreds of thousands of choices, species you may not even like. You have to work with us, it's all about learning not us just telling you how to do it.

Researching care of an animal doesn't just mean asking at the pet store and if you don't get an answer buying it anyway, it's about coming to places like this and doing in-depth appropriate research. With our help but you putting in some work too.

Take a look in the forums you'll see thousands upon thousands of threads with quality stocking advice... We're not making it up

Sending out the message to thousands of people on the internet that it's impossible to research care of an animal so just buy it and test your luck is very irresponsible. Research materials are out there for people willing to put the effort in to looking for them, and people who have the best interests of their pets at heart. We do it every day of the year for people willing to listen and there are better fishkeepers for it, myself included.

EDIT: Don't keep a shoal of tetras in with a Betta in a 40L tank... Humane habitable space springs to mind...
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lizzleton lizzleton
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  • Posted on: 15/1/2009 1:04
Re: 40 ltr Tropical tank needs bottom feeders/plecos????? #44
I wasn't trying to tell the original poster to follow exactly what I did. I was just commenting about my experiences with compatibility and the successful tank I've set up. And for you information, I did not put the 8 tetras into the new tank right away. I waited atleast week and used bacteria to jump start the system. I tested the water everyday to ensure that it was going in the right direction. And in no way would i ever jeopardize the lives of my fish! And I wasn't the only person who set up a tank with the same species of fish that I have in mine. And they have both been successful.

I would have to disagree with the comment out my mollies. I add aquarium salt to keep them happy. They bred within a few weeks of being of being put in the tank, so I'm expecting some baby mollies!

By the way, my angel is about and inch and I plan on moving him into another larger tank when he gets bigger.
longhairedgit longhairedgit
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  • Posted on: 15/1/2009 1:43
Re: 40 ltr Tropical tank needs bottom feeders/plecos????? #45
So you still have a corydoras having to tolerate salt exposure. Thats not too great, corys do actually die of that sort of thing though the exact level of salt they will tolerate varies a little. All are better off with none present. Either way the ph issue hasnt been sorted for the benefit of at least one species, its a bad mix.



I waited atleast week and used bacteria to jump start the system. I tested the water everyday to ensure that it was going in the right direction. And in no way would i ever jeopardize the lives of my fish



Not the impression given in the original post in context or content, please do make an effort toensure you don't mislead people on these issues by making cavalier initial statements if you don't want to be picked up on things like that.

my angel is about and inch and I plan on moving him into another larger tank when he gets bigger.

Again something that was not mentioned in the original post, so again something to watch. When giving examples of what you have or havent done, the full picture must be revealed, or people going off those recommendations (for if they are not intended to be viewed as such , why would they be posted, they serve only as reference examples surely?)will inevitably put their fish in harms way should the example be mirrored. Its slap happy advice giving, and LFS's, and people on the net do it a lot, and don't think about the consequences.

To a lot of people a post from even another newbie that is spoken with an authoratitive tone may be taken as gospel, particularly on a site where the reputation for advice is already good. We all have a responsibility to think about that in our posting, that not only are we not overstepping the mark by commenting on something beyond our personal abilities or experience to be stating with confidance, but also that we dont give false impressions through poorly considered posting.

Despite having had some success in fishkeeping you are still making beginners mistakes, mistakes that are often only revealed for their seriousness over the long term. The long term is not a few months but sometimes many years. The lack of the long term view is something that plagues fishkeeping circles if the truth be known, it happens when newbies advise newbies. TBH, the point here is not to perpetuate those mistakes by passing them onto others. The care and remit of the species we have talked about here were firmly established more than 40 years ago. There is no point in reliving the mistakes with every generation or perpetuating mistakes.

The death toll associated with perpetuation of mistakes is very high indeed. From that point of view I have to say I find eezpeezy's comment bizarre and unhelpful. These are lives, not a perpetual test bed for a bunch of munchkins to make the same mistakes generation after generation. It is the human perogative to learn from te mistakes of others rather than accept the cost of lives that comes with some basic and primitve need for experimentation. Its best squashed whenever possible, because these are mistakes that need not happen and experienced fishkeepers tend to pick up on them almost immediately anyway.

We are here to inform accurately, to make fish and owners happy, to raise the bar on standards, and to prevent needless death and childish attitudes from being the prevalent force in fishkeeping, becase lets face it, over the last 20 years despite more knowledge being available than ever before, fishkeeping among the masses is dropping into the toilet. Personally I like to keep the fish above the rim, and thats what most of us here are all about. Using experience to get it right first time, as close to every time as possible.

Devils advocacy in a subject that involves lives and animal sufferring really isnt too clever. Having a few dozen fish basic level fish species for a few years that havent died yet also doesnt make one an authority on fish behaviour or compatability. Personaly I speak from having kept several thousand fish, some in excess of 20 years in terms of longevity, and have a lifetimes habit of correcting hundreds of mistakes in the legacy of long term care of several hundred fish every year both in real life and on the net. Something I need not do if people got it right first time through learning before purchase.

I'm not really trying to crucify anyone here, but these are things that at first sight that seem superficial, casual, unimportant, but in actuality they have very real consequences for thousands of people and their lives their millions of fish lead. You don't really know anything in this hobby until you know long term care, its the internet generation only that believe having a dozen fish a few years makes you an authority. Breeding mollies for example is widely considered by anyone not stil cutting their teeth in the hobby to be only marginally harder than breathing.

Get discus or apistogramma to breed, then we wake up and start to look at things with more respect for ability. Its not elitist, its just a meritocracy, and fishkeeping will always be that - because lives depend on it. Ultimately its about keeping the ground floor clear of the rot, and thats the real difference between us and a cesspit like the yahoo answers fishkeeping section, and its why we have mods and advisors. When people are low concept, they get told, not just for the benefit of themselves but other too. When the posting cant be trusted for quality, people stay away in droves.

If they want to be told rubbish they can just humour their LFS staff for 5 minutes. I'm sorry if its all a bit of a lecture, but there is a very strong argument for keeping factual standards up. Its all very well stating yourself to be humane and a fish lover, but theres a difference between talking the talk and walking the walk. Lots of people with the best intentions make mistakes they wouldnt mean to, but they just dont know anything better from their relative position of experience and knowledge. It happens. There is a difference between sounding authoratitive and being authoratitive, and this isnt a fish shop hiring for five bucks an hour.
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EagleC EagleC
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Re: 40 ltr Tropical tank needs bottom feeders/plecos????? #46
Quote:

ezeepzee wrote:
It is impossible to find out the information you require.

example : Here

Hi Andy,
I owe you an appology, I completely missed your reply to that post - normally I get email alerts to remind me but on this occasion I think my Christmas holiday celebrations may have gotten in the way!
If you're still looking drop me a PM and I'll pick up the thread again.

Getting back to this thread I think we should all remember there is a difference between what can work for some people and what will work for virtually everyone. There is also a difference between what will keep a fish alive for a few years and what will allow it a full and contented life.

The experiences that can be gained in a single human life span are limited and so the experience any of us have needs to be matched with research, science, phychology and reason to acheive what could be considered best practice ethical advice.
ezeepzee ezeepzee
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Re: 40 ltr Tropical tank needs bottom feeders/plecos????? #47
PM Sent.
prowsey prowsey
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  • Posted on: 19/1/2009 17:21
Re: 40 ltr Tropical tank needs bottom feeders/plecos????? #48
LOL i saw the 40ltr...... subject and i thought here we go again with the whole issue on tank size. I remember the last one. people ripping out each other's hair. when ever someone talks bout a tank which is under 60L this whole issue comes up again.
Goldnugget Goldnugget
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Re: 40 ltr Tropical tank needs bottom feeders/plecos????? #49
Quite right too, ignoring it doesn't make it go away.
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longhairedgit longhairedgit
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Re: 40 ltr Tropical tank needs bottom feeders/plecos????? #50
Yup, and it will keep being addressed until people stop being so low concept on the outset of fishkeeping. DStandards are standards, it would be neglectful not to inform people of the foolish risks they naively take in buying overtly small aquaria. They wont stop asking and we wont stop telling them,come armageddon, hell freezing over, or the rest of eternity, or until the masses get it, and the seriousness of it, whichever happens to be first. Small aquaria are a fundamental problem in safe animal keeping and they lead to neglect, accidents, chemistry issues, behavioural problems and literally are the single largest cause of death, closely followed by lack of cycling accuracy and quarantine. Fish must fit the tank , its a fundamental part of basic fishkeeping. Anyone who doesnt think its important to get these things right is frankly an uncaring bloody moron who should stay away from animals. Its as tedious to hear mistake made for the thousandth time again on a forum as it is to have to pick it up and answer it correctly. But it has to be done. We don't really enjoy it, we do it to keep fish safe.

Minimums threaten lives, an enlightened race would have no problem seeing past these issues and doing better, or taking in a little advice. But thats life and people want to regard fish as a no cost easy to look after pet that can be done for pence and they have no awareness of water quality issues, and half the people on the planet think goldfish dont have feelings or can feel pain or remember anything, when its been scientifically confirmed repeatedly that they can. I view those who push for small tank culture as basically pig ignorant. Pig ignorance is where animal abuse starts.

For the benefit of all fish, it would be better if people recalibrated their mental preconception of what constitutes a decent size tank. Less than ten gallon is good for nowt in fishkeeping. Someone who thinks all but the tiniest species are happy in ten gallons really doesnt know much about fish, or being empathinc to another species, and lets face it isnt too sharp on abstract cognitive reasoning. Its a genuine sign of either ignorance, lacking instinct and logic, and often a combination of all three.It really doesnt take a brain surgeon to work out that no fish is really ever happy in that little space from a psychological standpoint, and the hobby has been apologising for people who are frankly , a bit slow on the uptake for far too long, and when we are put into a position of having to defend ourselves because peoples attitudes are a) badly skewed, b) unempathic, c) stupid, and d) bloody dangerous to animal health, frankly I start to get a bit miffed.

Tiny tanks are not ok as fish living accomodations. Just face up to it. Do the right thing, and stop playing devils advocate like your all 5 years old in a playground swopping trading cards for bubblegum. These are lives. Just sort it out. Were arent going to pander to peoples ignorance when their fish will be sufferring and dying from unnaturally high chemically induced deatsh and stereotypical behaviour. B ereal, its not gonna happen, because like it or not some people have dignity and care about what happens to animals.

If we have to throw our toys out of the pram occassionally its sheer desperation in the face of blody ignorance talking. Remember that. If you arent part solution, you are part of the problem. That goes for individuals and shops alike. Animals should not be allowed to suffer because people have stupid little fetishes for tiny tanks. If animal keeping is not to become a cruel, pathetic little childs hobby, then we have a duty to make sure people are clear on what constitutes a realistic and pragmatic level of safety, humane habitable space, and suitable enrichment.

The days of victorian bear pits are behind us, but give the average newbie aquarist a chance, and its straight back to the dark ages. People are that stupid, call it lacking education, lack of maturity, bad parental guidance, new levels of personal selfishness, the "me" generation, whatever, and thats why were here to tell them the truth when a corrupt animal trading industry cant be trusted to put welfare before profit. The reality is this. A good number of people instinctively realise that lots of fish in a small aquarium is not a good idea, I realised when I was about 4 years old, and so do millions of others, frankly, most of us would automatically feel like a complete git, putting an animal in a small space. We dont do it, we have that moral compass, and I believe its totally norrmal to have that compass, and that not having one is a problem. But on the forums, we get hit by some really obvious common sense questions. Questions that to people of average intelligence wouldnt get asked, now its not for me to judge why, but the fact is, its a case of having to pick up the back end for the slow ones, and if it means saving a life or two were happy to help. But if you were imagine that we'd humour the slow ones in order to make them feel better about themselves giving fish substandard accomodations, you'd be mistaken. Just because a petshop might have no standards and some other web forums are fishkeeping purely for people, where the animals needs are never considered, or given sufficient impetus does not mean we would allow this place to become the same intellectually hollow, morally irresponsible, and frankly loathesome kind of place.

Fishkeeping must have its ethics, it must have its structure, and part of that is ensuring fish safety, and in times where a lot of people are in the wrong, subject to bad marketing, shop indoctrination, and some really poor lazy personal standards, we have to fight pretty hard to stay on the straight and narrow. If we dont mention the size issue we would be without a doubt being neglectful and unrealistic in helping people.Small tank culture to be brutally honest, is something that only unenlightened beginners (forgivable)or more worryingly , persistantly bloody ignorant people (totally unforgivable) like. It is in no way, shape or form, clever to keep any fish species whatsoever in less than ten gallons of water, irrespective of species unless they happen to be absolutely tiny, and even then chemical safety is still a major consideration, no matter how well its filtered, and no matter how much water you change regularly.Its still not good fishkeeping.

To put it bluntly from an experienced keepers perspective, because frankly people need to hear this stated totally without any confusion or lack of clarity. Tiny aquaria with fish in are not clever, it is an intensely stupid persons sport. It is soley the domain, once those beginners months have passed, of the uncaring, and the stupid. What other name can you give a person who denies an animal humane levels of habitable space and safety except, shallow, ignorant, uncaring and persistantly bloody stupid.

It is what it is, theres no avoiding it. Even the small tank competition states that fish are not to be included in them, and people still dont get the hint. Bottom line, good moral fishkeepers who care about their pets do NOT keep them in tiny aquaria under 10 gallons. Ever. Those who do get marked down as muppets. If someone doesnt want to be a muppet, then they learn better and move on to better things so that their fish have a life, as oppose to merely being alive and living by grace alone, because the margin of error in safety is nearly nil.

Lets put it in perspective, the smallest tank I own is a twenty gallon quaratine tank, its specifically that size because it enables effortless and gentle water quality control for the singular average sized sick fish. It increases the chances of recovery radically because it isnt too small. It makes dosages safer, it has a decent o2 replacement rate, pre during and post med water changes can be smaller and safer, the accumulation of toxins slower. The fish is unlikely to be stressed in a comfortably siozed tank allowing the fish to remain stimulated, psychologically normal, thusly its immune system stays high and it will feed normally. This all maximizes the chances of recovery.

In a way its not so much that you can't keep fish alve in small tanks, we all know a lot of the time it can be done, but alive isnt the same as having a life. Im no health and safety freak, I smoke, I drink, my life can sometimes be chaos, and if i'm telling you that a small tank isnt safe, for gods sake listen, I speak from watching the death toll, I really really do. Small tanks are never clever , if the publics perception of what a totally average tanks was- as being what it always used to be before people started getting a bit retarded about fishkeeping, namely the 30 gallon STANDARD aquarium (clue is in the name really) then the fishkeeping world would be a better place. This looking at the 10 gallon as the standard size is a muppets sport, Its a minimum, not an average. I find people who ascribe to minimums basically disappoint as fishkeepers, and will always continue to do so. Fishkeeping will never be so advanced chemically that the 10 gallon will ever become the new 30 gallon, and even if it did it wouldnt matter, because what were talking about here is quality of life, and anyone who doesnt respect their fish's quality of life gets no respect from anyone else, end of story. Its not friendly, but its true, and its best out in the open.

Lets stop being so damn low concept, and become better fishkeepers who dont kill millions of fish every year like its normal. Fish die for numerous reasons, tanksize, water quality, lack of stability, lack of enrichment, disease , lack of quarantine, dwarfing, poor shipping standards, but fundamental to all that is bloody ignorance, and a lack of caring. At no point will ignoring the tanksize issue ever make any of that go away. If we do ignore it we will have accepted that ignorance, uncaring and exploitation IS fishkeeping, and if that day comes, i'll pack the hobby in , and petition for it to be banned. Fishkeeping is a priviledge, not a right, and doing it properly absolutely requires a humane perspective. Its not optional.

With every small tank sold, with every fish sold the same day as the tank, and whenever we fail to house an animal correctly we make PETA right about people keeping animals, and the RSPCA right about wanting import bans. If we lose the right to keep fish one day becauseof small tank culture, then if things have got that bad, i'll gladly kiss the hobby goodbye, with the sense that there really wasnt anything else to be done. P&h propaganda, bad stocking advice,stupid water quality advice novelty tanks, child oreinted marketing. I'll know who to blame if we ever do lose the right to keep fish.

If we dont keep things out of the gutter we will lose our rights in a more ethically minded society, and if we cant do better than this, then so be it.

Overall, thats why we have our rants and dont drop the subject or let it fly by unnoticed, and thats why we will always respond. The rights of the good fishkeepers will go down the pan all but for a seething mass of small tank loving idiots, and others who will never take fishkeeping seriously. Then the landmark court cases for animal abuse will be happening, and then its all over. Just sit and watch.

We like to keep the site polite and inclusive yes, but when people can't read between the lines, then i'm afraid the truth has to come out, no matter how unpaleatable it may be. Small tank owners are tolerated, not encouraged, its a grace of politeness given, especially when its taken into consideration that small tanks are marketed so vigourously, and that fishkeeping from a commerce point of view has been in a very bad place with the large chains seriously taking athe mickey with misinformation and a foul legacy of giving the public a skewed image of what constitutes good or even remotely acceptable animal care. We tend to be forgiving to the newbie because the shop is often their first point of contact.

But the truth is small tank culture is deeply foolish, a sport for the very worst of the naive. This situation should really shine out as blindingly obvious to anyone who knows animals well, and people are most definitely NEVER encouraged to take on fish they can't successfully and humanely home permanently on here.

Sorry to come over a bit vehement in the posting, but lets not kid ourselves, and make sure we see things as they really are. You see, somewhere along the line we got a bit confused about how much this stuff really matters. Lets make it clear, we are talking literally millions of deaths every year in this country alone because of small tank culture. Its not clever in the way that cutting your toenails with a scythe isnt clever. The superficiality of the technical achievement in controlling water chemistry and keeping fish in a small volume of water is eclipsed completely by the kind of ignorance it takes to fail to realise that a fish deserves a quality of life that includes its mental well-being part of that being sufficient enrichment and reasonable freedom of movement.

Its stupid in a way like designing the perfect anti personel missile as a deterrant device, and then giving a terrorist group the first option on a purchase. Its a case of people not seeing the wood for the trees, and then when you add into the equation that people who like small tanks like to promote them at entry level fishkeepers, who are by definition, the people most likely to kill fish in them, because of lacking knowledge about fish behaviour, species remits, needs and of course almost nobody cycles without fish, and what you have is a very immoral and sinister culture that considers animal death little more than an inconveinience to their plans. I dont like that culture, and I never will.Unfortunately a whole industry is using it as a selling point, probably half the revenue of every fish superseller youve ever seen comes from this incessant small scale ever-repeated death. Its not right. It will never be right, and its not where fishkeeping should ever have found itself, and frankly it shames all of us.

If you dont wanted to be counted among the numbers of these fish killing b*******, then you tell people the truth. Its a duty of compassion and decency, and its the only thing that will bring change. I'm certainly not about to clam up and forget about it just so that some company owning sociopath can continue to grasp every penny from the unlearned newbie and profit from needless animal death. A nice little tank for someone with a real understanding micro species, a few shrimp some plants and obsessively anal water quality control fine, but no fish, not in pico size tanks and not for newbies. Its just hell in a handbasket. Tiny tanks and fish , its just a total recipe for disaster.

I actually shudder to think what reasoning goes through the mind of someone who thinks from a mature perspective rather than a newbie standpoint that a tank under 10 gallons could ever see a fish happy, healthy and safe. I can only assume it must be real, genuine, stupidity. Perhaps what they need is a few weeks in a cell at her majesty's pleasure to drive the message home for them a bit.

Never let it be said I didnt lay it down for you absolutely straight. Yes , i'm a grumpy old git, who wouldnt be when faced with this, but its the truth, and you all know it.
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