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rachyw82 rachyw82
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  • Posted on: 30/1/2010 12:56
Re: Advice on sick Blue Oranda & Black Moor #1
Hi Pixxie,

I love your blackmoor!! I am a total sucker for moors and yours is sooo cute!

Anyway, I agree with Violet and Miss P that the reason you're having problems is because your tank is too small for the type of fish you have. Is it just the 2 fish in there or are there any other inhabitants?

The stocking levels on this forum suggest 180 litres for 2 fancies. I myself have 2 moors in 180 litres, and 2 fantails in 125 litres.

I think a tank in excess of 100 litres for 2 fancies is sufficient to begin with, then it's up to you to judge how they grow to see if they need a bigger home. I think next year I'll have to upgrade my 125 litre tank.

The reason for the larger volumes of water is to help dilute the said toxins produced by your fish so that the filter can cope and build up the good bacteria needed to process these toxins into the end product, nitrATE. The fish also need the room for proper swimming - a small tank or bowl may hinder the growth of the fish from the outside, but the internal organs will continue to grow and eventually become compacted causing all sorts of problems and eventually death.

We've all been in your situation where we bought a tiny tank and were assured by the aquatic store that it was safe for 5 goldfish...what you have to remember is that most stores don't give out the correct advice as they're just out to make money. I had one of these bad starts but listening to advice on forums has made sure that the fish I have now are incredibly healthy and happy, can grow to their proper sizes with no stunting, no ill health, and the best bit is watching them being able to swim freely all over the tank - there's nothing worse than seeing a large fish in a small tank with no room to swim. It's like us being in a tiny room and never allowed out. My fish may look lost in their tanks now, but they are growing so so fast that I can see I have room for no more.

Please try to get your fish a much bigger home, they are so pretty and the water quality will be so much easier to manage in a bigger tank. It doesn't have to cost a lot, eBay & Freecycle are good places to look, so is your local tip!

Good luck and let us know how you get on
Juwel Rio 180 - female black moor & female panda moor
Fluval Roma 125 - male red fantail & female red cap oranda
Eheim 2213 classic canister filter on each tank


rachyw82 rachyw82
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  • Posted on: 28/1/2010 23:30
Re: Antibiotics #2
Oh I forgot, I don't really know enough about egg impaction to be honest, I do want to do further research into it though. From what I've heard, if there's no male to knock the eggs out, then the female should reabsorb them, but some fish have issues with this and the eggs just literally rot inside them. That's just a couple of sources I've read, I do need to read more to have a proper opinion. Maybe it's worth asking Andy Green about this? X
Juwel Rio 180 - female black moor & female panda moor
Fluval Roma 125 - male red fantail & female red cap oranda
Eheim 2213 classic canister filter on each tank


rachyw82 rachyw82
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  • Posted on: 28/1/2010 23:23
Re: Antibiotics #3
Quote:

Francesvdm wrote:
Hi Rachel,
ALL ideas are so worthwhile and valued, coz at some stage something must work. I did think it sounded just like Gilly and I can't remember what you did that finally changed her?
I have tried everything you suggest, form lights on for one session (she was worse) to experimenting with temperature. She was far, far worse without the heater when the temp would drop low at night, so I have it set so that it doesn't go below 20C at night.
Today she has diverted very slightly from her normal pattern, and she is not floating upside down, just floating right way up at the top. Going to do another massive water change tomorrow to lower the nitrate even further.
What are you views on egg impaction?


Hi Frances,

How is Ziggi tonight?

Being totally honest, I have no idea what stopped Gilly floating. I tried allsorts, although not to the extents you have. I mostly did food and environmental changes, eg water changes. I think she just grew out of it. She does swim funny sometimes though, ie not always straight in the water, and she 'creeps' along the gravel!

I'm having trouble with my red cap oranda at the moment though, she's still hanging out at the top of the tank all night and ends up floating and producing floating poo. Since the airstone has been added, the fantail is hardly at the top, it's just Pearl I'm having issues with now.

Ahh, the challenges of fancy goldfish! Do keep us posted on Ziggi though, I do hope she gets better poor girl. She's a fighter!
Juwel Rio 180 - female black moor & female panda moor
Fluval Roma 125 - male red fantail & female red cap oranda
Eheim 2213 classic canister filter on each tank


rachyw82 rachyw82
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  • Posted on: 28/1/2010 13:36
Re: Antibiotics #4
Quote:

6am - dark and I creep in, she is sleeping upside down at the bottom.
8am - when the lights come on she swims totally normally, no floating issues. Gets fed.
10am - starts to be floaty at the top
12pm - starts to invert
2pm - upside down at top
4pm - upside down at bottom
5pm - when the lights come on she is totally normal again and the cycle starts again.


This sounds somewhat familiar to what my gilly went through, although she was fine with the lights off and it was when the lights came on that made her float. Whether that was just coincidence or not I do not know. She just became really bad by about 8.30 - 9.00 and so I went to bed with her in a mess at the top of the tank, but every morning she would be perfectly normal again.

I did used to wonder about nitrATEs, but she has out-grown the problem, so it could be something that's happening as Ziggi's growing (although I know that's really clutching at straws!)

Have you investigated temperature at all? Not sure if it has little or no relevance, but my tank is always warmer in the evenings because of the lights (I don't use a heater, it's not needed) and is always cooler in the mornings when the lights are on. I used to wonder if there was a correlation with the tank being a few degrees warmer and Gilly floating.

Perhaps try having just one longer lighting period throughout the day rather than having 2 separate periods? I have my tank lights come on at 3pm and go out at 11pm, then it's total darkness, so they also get a few hours natural daylight before the lights come on.

It does sound though like she's either starting to improve form the medication, or she's slowly, very slowly, starting to grow out of the condition. But it could be neither of these!

Hope that helps a bit, it may not, but I thought it would be worth typing!
Juwel Rio 180 - female black moor & female panda moor
Fluval Roma 125 - male red fantail & female red cap oranda
Eheim 2213 classic canister filter on each tank


rachyw82 rachyw82
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  • Posted on: 25/1/2010 21:04
Re: Feeding Goldfish? #5
Hiya,

Like Frances, I also feed mine twice a day.

The key is variety - a good, healthy, varied diet will ensure good health and growth.

I feed my fancies Saki Hikari Fancy Goldfish pellets in the morning, and bloodworm in the evening. I sometimes switch bloodworm for tubifex, King British tablet treats, or my own homemade gel food which contains vitamins, minerals and vegetables.

If it's good growth you're after then protein is the way to go. Bloodworm is probably the best food for getting protein in your fish, but everyday you should feed a good quality staple pellet. Tetra Gold Japan pellets are good too as the fish take their time to 'chew' on them rather than gobbling them all at once!

Try to have plenty of live plants & algae to munch on too, as these are also a green addition to the diet and help keep the digestive region healthy.

Hope that helps
Juwel Rio 180 - female black moor & female panda moor
Fluval Roma 125 - male red fantail & female red cap oranda
Eheim 2213 classic canister filter on each tank


rachyw82 rachyw82
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  • Posted on: 25/1/2010 17:07
Re: is my fish dying? help! #6
Sorry you've been given bad advice from your lfs, we've all been there before. To be honest, it looks like the poor fishy has suffered from fin rot, as they look shredded quite close to the body. The brown bits are probably secondary sores from the fin rot. This is almost certainly caused by poor water quality, and with such a small tank as yours its going to be almost impossible to sort out the water quality. So in my opinion, the most urgent things you can do for your fish asap are to get the biggest tank you can, the bigger the better, they'll soon grow into it. Also, you need the liquid API test kit. In a tank your size, you'll be forever doing water changes as the small volume of water just won't be able to dilute the toxins produced by the fish. The filter builds up bacteria to process the toxins into less harmful bacteria, you must read up on the nitrogen cycle to give a better understanding on this, then you'll know how important and urgent it is to get your fish a much bigger home. Good luck and keep asking questions.
Juwel Rio 180 - female black moor & female panda moor
Fluval Roma 125 - male red fantail & female red cap oranda
Eheim 2213 classic canister filter on each tank


rachyw82 rachyw82
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  • Posted on: 24/1/2010 22:13
Re: Lesson learned... #7
I only had a thin layer of sand when I switched my substrate to gravel, I was able to syphon the sand out with a length of pipe and only removed 80% of the water to get it out, so I left the fish in the tank. However, if changing from gravel to another substrate, I'd advise what Frances and Mss P have suggested, that is to remove the fish & filter(s) to another container so you can do a thorough job.
Juwel Rio 180 - female black moor & female panda moor
Fluval Roma 125 - male red fantail & female red cap oranda
Eheim 2213 classic canister filter on each tank


rachyw82 rachyw82
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  • Posted on: 24/1/2010 22:02
Re: Silly question but... #8
Hehe cheers guys! They are soooo lively right now, must've had a nap while we were having dinner at the in-laws and they just won't stop now!

Fed them some bloodworm and my black moor has a habit of sticking her head & eyes out the water so I can drop it in her mouth, she jumped half way out for her food tonight and splashed water in my eyes!!
Juwel Rio 180 - female black moor & female panda moor
Fluval Roma 125 - male red fantail & female red cap oranda
Eheim 2213 classic canister filter on each tank


rachyw82 rachyw82
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  • Posted on: 24/1/2010 14:53
Re: Antibiotics #9
Quote:

Francesvdm wrote:
she had the worst day ever yesterday, and for the first time I thought I would lose her. She floated upside down the entire day and when she tried to swim she would spiral with her head down in strange circular motions.


Oh no Frances, that's terrible, poor little Ziggi

How is she today, any improvement?

Perhaps this is the worst of it coming out of her system, she may drastically improve in the next week or so. Keep doing what you're doing and feed those peas - she needs a good laxative to help her while she's on the medication. Give her Epsom salts if you have to, anything to make it easier for her during this time.

She is still accepting food willingly isn't she? This is a good sign.

I love your avatar by the way, what a lovely photo of them both looking at the camera! Bet they were expecting food!
Juwel Rio 180 - female black moor & female panda moor
Fluval Roma 125 - male red fantail & female red cap oranda
Eheim 2213 classic canister filter on each tank


rachyw82 rachyw82
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  • Posted on: 24/1/2010 14:42
Silly question but... #10
...my tank lights are on a timer to come on at 3pm and go off at 11pm. This gives 8 hours of full spectrum lighting plus the few hours natural light before they come on.

Now I've got them into a good routine of when the tank lights go out, the room lamp stays on for half an hour or so, then it's total darkness for sleep time. If me & the OH have come home late, we try not to go into the lounge and disturb the fish (daft I know), but I feel it would shock them.

Anyway, last night we had friends over and were all up until 4.30am! The fish were active all night as always. But today, they seem a lot slower, more lethargic, and sitting on the gravel. They never do this except bedtime! None of them are fin clamping and I've performed full water tests on both tanks which are perfect (although nitrates are at 20 in my moors tank which I'm a little uneasy with as it's usually 10).

My daft question is, can fish get so used to routine that they can be tired out the next day if they've been active for longer, just like we do when we've had a late night out and are tired the next day? I just find it a bit odd how all my fish appear to be resting.

I'll have to wait & see what happens when the tank lights come on
Juwel Rio 180 - female black moor & female panda moor
Fluval Roma 125 - male red fantail & female red cap oranda
Eheim 2213 classic canister filter on each tank



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