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Asumel Asumel
  • Just can't stay away
  • Just can't stay away
  • Posted on: 27/1/2014 20:11
Fish science blog #1
Anyone interested in the sciences behind fish keeping and ornamental Aquaculture check out this blog by a friend and collegue
http://keepingnemo.wordpress.com/
and like the facebook page for more information
https://www.facebook.com/KeepingNemo

It features a look at the work done at the national lobster hatchery which is worth a look in itself :)
Eat, SCUBA, Fish.


Asumel Asumel
  • Just can't stay away
  • Just can't stay away
  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 19:10
Future Reference #2
I would like to ask if people posting data on this forum would reference the data that they are quoting. this would allow for less confusion and would allow other to read the information themselves?
A place to post information from papers or other sources could maybe be added as a few of the Mods don't think this should be in general information? as I would like to keep bridging the gap between the science and the hobby.

Lastly I would like to make an apology to those who I have been debating with, as it got a bit out of had towards the end there. But as you can imagine being told you are wrong when you are both arguing for the same side can be frustrating.It evidentially was misunderstandings on both sides. and I accept my part in it.
no hard feelings I hope.
Eat, SCUBA, Fish.


Asumel Asumel
  • Just can't stay away
  • Just can't stay away
  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 18:41
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #3
Quote:

suey2 wrote:
I didn't think I was missing your point, maybe I didn't make mine clearly enough though Goldies grow throughout their entire lives so I'm afraid for me to be personally convinced then a study would need to run until they died so we' be looking at 20-40 years. Plus you'd need a decent selection of individuals so you could average out the results. Etc. etc. I am keeping an open mind, but let's all try and do that

And I do have a BSc, but I don't feel the need to provide my CV

If you did really have a BSc you would know that any paper published will have replicates and use statistics to support or reject the hypothesis (at least if you went to a decent University).
FYI the paper used 100 individuals, is that enough for you? or would you like to re do it with 200? 300? maybe 1000?
Eat, SCUBA, Fish.


Asumel Asumel
  • Just can't stay away
  • Just can't stay away
  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 18:22
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #4
Quote:

Fishlady wrote:
Please enlighten me as to how quoting a minimum tank size less than our recommended minimum of 180 litres is supporting us? 3.7L per fish cm equates to around 110 litres for a 30cm fish. I don't know where you learned to add up, but 110 is 70 litres or around 40% less than 180 where I come from.


Evidently Fishlady you need to put on some glasses or maybe go back to school?, as after quoting this value I have said that this would not cater for the welfare of the fish and have said that a tank bigger than this is needed, and have for a lot of the time have agreed with the caresheet value of 180L min
Eat, SCUBA, Fish.


Asumel Asumel
  • Just can't stay away
  • Just can't stay away
  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 18:12
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #5
Suey2,
Evidently I do have to highlight certain aspects of my writing as you are not as you are still missing my point.
I will quote from he paper here as it ran until " the goldfish reached adult size" If you are not looking at anything other than effects one the growth and any deformities growth to their maximum size is all you need. yes I suppose you would need 40 years to assess the welfare but if you even read what I have been saying its is almost impossible to quantify and thus best to research things which are easier to measure (deformities ect).
I do wonder if your graduate and postgraduate Quals are in any way scientific based?
It does amuse me however that you think I am using this as an "indisputable fact", I am mearly quoting the best fitting hypothesis which has been proven at this time. In science of course you need an open mind but you can't go against the current set of facts. And if you had any scientific background you would know that the whole scientific process is about assessing and re-producing experiments done by others to re-enforce our understanding.
I disagree, As soon as anyone has mentioned anything other than what you all say every post, even if it is backed up by proof, it gets shunned. maybe keep an open mind and consider reading the science behind it and consider an opinion which is supporting yours?
Eat, SCUBA, Fish.


Asumel Asumel
  • Just can't stay away
  • Just can't stay away
  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 15:46
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #6
Quote:

Fishlady wrote:
Esactly what I thought you were doing. You've missed the main point of this site, which is to promote decent standards of care, not "the minimum" and to offer general advice that covers more than one specific point (health effects) in this case. I have no dispute with the findings of the study, but they are out of the context of the arena you're quoting them in.

EDIT: Done arguing the same point 'til I'm blue in the face --- going to do something useful instead.

Again you have missed my point entirely, I was supporting the sites welfare using tested facts to back up your 180L min point in your care sheet. I have given the reference Read the paper yourself and you will see that it is in the context and supports the care sheet well.
It seems to me that there are a few MOD's on here that are stuck in their ways and are not willing to listen to anything else, regardless whether they are being supported or argued against.
there are others who are open minded and realise the links that can be drawn from research done.
Yeah I think I am done too as I feel like I'm trying to give creationists proof of creationism and they are denying it because its scientific.
Eat, SCUBA, Fish.


Asumel Asumel
  • Just can't stay away
  • Just can't stay away
  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 15:16
Re: Mixed species tanks? #7
Quote:

Fishlady wrote:
Food and Agriculture are a completely different field of study to ornamental pet fish. Welfare standards in food production are tightly controlled and balanced relative to efficient production and profit. They bear no relation to the keeping of fish as pets for an entire lifetime in a small tank.


Having studied two Bsc's and an Msc from one of the best marine biology university in the world and having worked in a public aquarium, experimental aquarium and kept fish for 16 years on top of this, your statement is unfounded, unthoughtful and entirely wrong. I could provide many examples of the closeness of these things ( and I believe I have done previously)

Quote:
Science is no more than a tool just like everything that has a human element involved will be biased by the intentions of those that devise the experiments and by the required outcomes. It is not the be all and end all that some seem to think it is.

The whole aim of the scientific peer review process is to remove the bias, and it does a very good job of doing this as papers which have been published have to be approved by people in the front of the science and research but not in the location where the research was undertaken. and each experiment is documented so it can be repeated and checked by anyone who wants to. and any affiliations, sponsors and alterior motive have to be declared before the paper is published
Everything in your Tanks and home is based on science and research are you wanting to deny it all?
Eat, SCUBA, Fish.


Asumel Asumel
  • Just can't stay away
  • Just can't stay away
  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 15:06
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #8
Right posting that data of the minimum size to have no health risks to the fish is fine. you are evidently not listening to what I have said they looked at the health risk only!
so not going back on anything I have stated many times that a tank larger than this would be needed to support the welfare of the fish. It is very hard to quantify welfare so the best thing to look at are health risks.
To people reading this thread I'm sure the only reason they are getting confused is because you are arguing the same point as me, the only difference is what I say is backed up by something reliable. and you have no need to reiterate data from your goldfish care sheet as in a large proportion of my comments have agreed with it!
"while the science says the fish stayed alive and grew, that does not translate into the context of a high standard of care in a long-term domestic set up."
You obviously don't understand that is not what they were measuring. It is almost impossible to quantify welfare and thus hard to show trends ect. so by showing a minimum tank size which does not cause any physical deformities and allows for natural growth and behaviour helps to establish sizes which are supported by facts not speculation by someone who has kept fish for a few years.
Eat, SCUBA, Fish.


Asumel Asumel
  • Just can't stay away
  • Just can't stay away
  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 14:29
Re: A tale of four goldfish - how tank size and living conditions can affect fish #9
Suey2- I would imagine not many of them but this study was an aim to find the MINIMUM tank size that would not cause any problem with the fish and that is it, proved by science. Obviously that Min has to be exceeded to improve the living conditions for the fish
The 110L is not far off the 180L on the caresheet, and again is providing a MINIMUM tank size that would not cause helth problems with the fish the extra 70L allows them to move and live well.


Fishlady- you evidently have no concept of science or the use of science in our society if you seriously believe this statement " (in the limited sense of fish surviving or in laboratory studies that have nothing in mind beyond proof of a specific theory)"
as for consistant advice, I have been giving the same advice as you saying that they need an area larger than the 110L to not cause any problems with health and to increase welfair last time I checked 180 was bigger than 110?
but for some reason as soon as I add some scientific background for the statements I have been making ( thus improving the reliability of my statements) you poopoo all of what I have been saying and seem to be rejecting the value of science in any area of our lives not just in fish keeping.
Eat, SCUBA, Fish.


Asumel Asumel
  • Just can't stay away
  • Just can't stay away
  • Posted on: 3/11/2013 14:14
Re: Mixed species tanks? #10
Quote:

Fishlady wrote:
Tiger Barbs and Angelfish? Neon Tetras and White Cloud Minnows? Please, don't take this the wrong way, but just because things can be done or have been done doesn't mean they necessarily should be done. I'm also well aware that fish that live together in the wild won't necessarily do so in a tank, thank you.

Like I have said before, this data is from the FAO and they are the most common fish sold in the world, you can safely say that at some point they will come into contact. you cant test everything all the time.

Quote:
Can I reiterate that main aim of FK is to promote the welfare of fish. There are a lot of interesting facts that don't necessarily constitute the best advice to give to new fishkeepers in distress. They can be interesting to discuss, but please NOT in threads asking for help with specific issues.

When someone is here asking for help with a specific situation and possibly very distressed we need to give quite generalised advice that will actually help them and stay on topic.

Discussions in these other areas can be interesting and sometimes useful but help and advice threads are not the place to do so.

We (as in the mods) would appreciate it if those wanting to discuss matters such as this would start separate threads for that specific purpose in the Members' Lounge and leave the help threads on topic so the posters concerned and casual passers by with the same problems can get general, helpful advice pertinent to the situation at hand.

I know this IS a separate thread, but this stuff has been spilling over into the advice threads a lot lately and is not helpful.

An area marked General Information surely would be the best area to post information. This information backed up by science is use full for all, not just those in the members area.
I have to say I agree with Finnipper, everything I seem to be saying is being poo pooed by you, even when this is backed up by peer reviewed scientific works. I have given references for all the facts that I have presented to back up my statements, I don't seem to see the same from others?
Eat, SCUBA, Fish.



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