Hi. Im a newly registered user and fairly new to the hobby. I have ich in my tank which has affected and killed several fish in the last two weeks. In my opinion they dont seem to be dying of the ich they seem to be dying of fin rot which comes on after theyve had ich?
Firstly a few details:-
280 actual litres of water. Im running 2 Fluval 205 sized filters.
Readings as of this morning :-
PH 7.6 [varies 7.3 - 7.7]
Ammonia 0.25 [its usually zero]
Nitrite ZERO
Nitrate approx 40 [varies between 20 and 50]
Last change of water was 60 ltrs changed 12 hours ago when the correct amount of King British white spot treatment was added. Ive been dosing every 48 hours as recommended. I was changing approx 30 ltrs every day [for the last 2 weeks] but upped it to 60 ltrs changed every day from 4 days ago. Ive also added 10 desert spoons of API aquarium salt 10 days ago, and after each water change i add a couple of spoonfulls to make up for that which was lost in the water change. I dont have means to test the salinity of the water but im happy to buy something if you think it could help.I also upped the temperature to 28/29 degrees 8 or 9 days ago.Quite a lot of aeration from air pump.
Stock:-
4 x female Bettas [no spots at all but one is now losing its fins. [It has NOT been picked on or nipped]
3 x small torpedo barbs [none affected]
10 x glowlight tetras [none affected-1 died the day i put them in the tank]
6 x small Melon Barbs [2 have spots- 2 died 3 days ago from their fins & tail rotting away]
4 x 5 banded barbs [2 have spots]
4 x zebra danios [ had 5 until 2 weeks ago, have never found its body]
Ive also had 4 dwarf Gouramis [but not at the same time]This part is complicated! Bought a pair 3 weeks ago. After 3 days one was very sick [tail rotting away] Took it back they gave me another.3 days later the other was very sick [same symptoms] Took it back they gave me another. The other 2 replacements have died within the last 6-10 days.
Should i stop medication? Do a big water change, replace the carbon for a couple of days and then try another treatment?
Any advice greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Hi

There are some issues with the pH of your water and some of the fish that may be contributing to their fin rot and general poor health, but before looking at that, here's what I think is best short-term to try and help them recover.

As you have both whitespot and finrot in the tank it would be best to use a combination of two medications, one for each. The only treatments I know of that are safe in combination are eSHa 2000 for the finrot and eSHa Exit for whitespot. However, certain types of water conditioner can reduce the effetiveness of medications. I suggest you also buy a bottle of Seachem Prime as we know this to have no effect on these meds from a direct conversation with the manufacturer. As you also have ammonia in the tank, Prime will lock that into a safer form (ammonium) and will also help reduce the effects of any potential nitrite spike that may follow on from the ammonia spike.

You will need to run carbon for a couple of days to remove existing meds and so continue the daily water changes to control ammonia while that is happening.

When you have the two meds and a bottle of Prime, remove the carbon, do a 50% water change and add in enough Prime to dose for the whole tank volume before dosing with both meds as per pack directions. When the three day course is over check for any continuing symptoms and if necessary extend treatment by a further three days. If you can also get a Seachem Ammonia Alert this will be very useful to you as unlike all the standard liquid tests this will only react to toxic free ammonia. As it's better to avoid water changes during treatment with meds, this will give you a far clearer idea of whether a change is really needed. As Prime locks the toxic ammonia safely, you should find no need for water changes over the treatment period.

Long term though there are a few issues to consider. Firstly your pH is on the high side for some of your fish. If pH is high then the water may also be too hard for them. Do you know the gH of your tap water and tank water? Also what is the pH of your tap water (test immediately after drawing water and also test some left to stand in a cup overnight and post both results)?

Quote:

Female bettas - pH range is from 6.5 to 7.5
Glowlight Tetra - pH range is from 5.5 to 7.5
Melon Barb - pH range is from 6 to 7
Five Banded Barb - pH range is from 5.5 to 7
Dwarf Gourami pH range is 6 to 7.5

All those prefer soft to medium water too so that's why we need to know more about your tap water. As you can see all of the affected fish prefer softer more acidic water, and being in the wrong water makes them more susceptible to picking up diseases.

Another point is that the Zebra Danio isn't a tropical fish, but a temperate one and prefers temperatures below 24C so they won't be feeling too comfortable at 28/29C at the moment.

Dwarf Gourami have in recent years become far more intolerant of incorrect parameters and have weak immune systems anyway due to systematic inbreeding so it's not surprising they all succumbed. Even in ideal conditions they can often be very sickly at the moment as they are mostly very poor quality fish.

Hope that helps and if you've any questions, please ask

Hi Fishlady. Thanks for your reply. Im already using the Prime by Seachem. I will get some of the other meds on Tuesday, plus new carbon and i will apply as you have directed.

Im open to any directions as its my first disease and i dont have the expertise to get rid of it. I will also test my tap water now and a cupfull tomorrow after it has been left to stand as youve instructed.

May i also add at this point that my tank has only been running for 7 weeks. The first fish, the Danios were added after one week [as instructed by my LFS] and the next lot the week after and the next lot the week after etc.

Long term, as i dont want to get rid of the fish that may be affected by the Ph being on the high side for them, should i start buying the 'PH down' formula? Obviously im not going to use any until my tank is disesae free but just thought i would ask.

Once again my thanks! Its greatly appreciated. Will post those results tomorrow!

Hi,

OK, that sheds a little more light on things. The tank has been cycling with fish in the water which has subjected them to fluctuating levels of ammonia and nitrite over a long period of time. This will have caused additional stress and is often associated with finrot and whitespot outbreaks.

It's not uncommon for LFS's to still suggest cycling with fish, but in recent times it has been established that cycling can be completed without any fish in the tank, thus saving them from being exposed to toxins and saving the new owner from a lot of heartache and extra water changes. It's not much use now in your current situation, but have a look at this article which explains how the nitrogen cycle works and how to cycle a new tank fishlessly as it may be useful if you ever set up another tank.

I see also that your tank pH has been fluctuating. Fluctuations in pH are a great stressor, but again unstable pH is common in a tank during the period where the nitrogen cycle is establishing. When we know the results of your two pH tests on your tap water we'll have a better idea how the pH is likely to settle once the tank is stable.

Regarding pH Down: this is not likely to be helpful for three reasons. Firstly, if water is hard and has a lot of carbonates, this chemical will reduce pH temporarily, but it will bounce back up rapidly. A fluctuating pH is very harmful to fish so for that reason we wouldn't recommend its use. Secondly, it looks like you need to reduce the pH by a large margin to get it below 7. This kind of product is less effective when trying to make large reductions, and the bouncing pH phenomenon is more common in those circumstances. The third reason is that usually a high pH means you have hard water. The fish you have need soft water and a pH reducing product will have no impact at all on the water hardness.

It would be a really good idea to find out how hard your tap water is. The best way is with a kH/gH test kit. The API kit is good value and is around £8 on eBay. For an initial guide you can visit your water supplier's web site and look for a page on "Water Quality in Your Area". There should be a box to enter your post code and see a report for that area which includes the hardness level. Post that back here with the pH readings and we'll see what the best plan is.

Hi. My tap water as it comes out of the tap is 7.6.Ive been on the Yorkshire Water site and for my postcode it says i have moderately hard to hard water.Minimum was 20, maximum was 115 and the average mean over the test period was 74.36 for the 12 month period of the test.

I will also buy the kH/gH test kit tomorrow if they have one in stock.

It would be best to get a kH/gH test as you've suggested, because the range in your area varies quite a lot. It appears from Yorkshie Water's site as though they quote hardness as calcium only where normally it's quoted as calcium carbonate. The levels quoted are quite soft by the normal standard so they need converting to one of the conventional formats used in fishkeeping. Doing that brings them in line with their stated view of "moderately hard to hard" : 20 mg/l calcium is the same as 50 mg/l calcium carbonate or about 3 German degress (which soft), 75 mg/l calcium is the same as 188 mg/l calcium carbonate or about 10 German degrees and 115 mg/l calcium is the same as 288 mg/l calcium carbnonate or 16 German degrees which is hard.

There's a large difference even from the mid-range reading to the high end which is where yours must lie, given their description of the water so your own test is pretty important.

Hi. Ive just got the aSHa 2000 and the aSHa exit. It does say you can apply both together, i was a bit worried about that.Ive just changed 40% of the water and added new carbon. It says to change 40% tomorrow also.While putting the new carbon in the filters i noticed three strange fork tailed creatures about half an inch long swimming about in the bottom of one filter. I thought they were baby fish at first, so i typed in 'strange creatures in my aquarium filter' on Google and it appears they are damselfly larvae which get into the tank on plants. Have you ever had them and should i let the fish eat them or just flush them down the sink?

I forgot the test kit for the kH/gH.

I got into the fish keeping hobby thru my son as he was after some fish for ages so i bought him a 130 litre tank already running off ebay for Xmas which came with some fish. He lives with his Mom and has a different water supplier. We took some of the tank water home with the fish in, added his treated tap water and he hasnt had any problems.He also bought a pair of Gouramis the week before i got mine from the same place as mine which died and his have been fine.Though mine were from a different batch as i bought mine the day after they came off quarantine.

He has soft water 7.0. I was wondering if i get two 25 ltr containers and get water from his house, then everytime i do a % water change and use his tap water the PH will gradually fall until im only using the softer water from his house, if i keep refilling them. What do you think?

Tested that cupfull of tap water left to stand from yesterday and i would say its slightly lower at 7.5


[ i changed 80 ltrs last night [approx 30%]and results just taken now BEFORE i did the 40% change and put the carbon back in were :=

Ph 7.6
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite zero
Nitrate 30
Considering i did such a big water change last night, surely that Nitrate reading is very high. Could it be the KB treatment which was causing this?

Damselfly larvae (other kinds too) are not that unusual to find in tanks. We have lot's in our 'mystery ID' room

usually come in with plants. Whilst generally only a risk to fry and baby fish, best to remove them really.

If you have another source of water which is softer and more acidic (some GH and KH readings for your son's area would be helpful) then yes, using this will lower your tank's readings over time of course. Same principle as using re-mineralised RO.

Nitrate kits are known to be difficult to read but if you changed 30% of the water you would normally expect nitrate in the tank levels to reduce by 30% of course. In FK's experience not always that straight forward given the kit and it's similar colours. Daily changes for a few days whilst you run the carbon before adding the dual Esha meds (fine to mix as Fishlady said) should resolve

Hi

It sounds as though the water at the house where your son lives is much more suited to the fish you have so a gradual change via water changes is a good idea and will make them much more comfortable and hopefully healthier too.

As for nitrates, have you tested the level of nitrates in the tap water supply? It's legally allowed to be up to 50ppm in the UK so whatever level it comes at from the tap is realistically as low as it can ever be in the tank.

Hi. Thanks for both of your recent replies. The latest news is i lost my Betta yesterday. Her fins were all ragged but no spots. The other 3 Bettas are showing slight signs of fin damamge [no spots] and the other fish are as they were really. Ive had carbon back in the filters for the last 48 hours and ive also done 40% water changes for each of the last 2 days as it said i should do to get rid of previous meds.

Ive just taken the carbon out in the last 30 minutes and ive done a 20% water change and im just running the filters for a couple of hours without carbon before i add both eSHa meds.

Just one other question if i may.I got my plants as i didnt want them dying because of the melachite green and the salt, and bagged them and left them in the bottom of the tank. This was almost 3 weeks ago.If there were any white spot Tomonts or Thermonts on the plants they wouldnt have been able to find a host, and as the temp has been high to speed up their cycle, do you think they would have died in the bag? Id like to use the plants again but if theres a chance that they could survive in the bag then i will throw them away.

Lastly ive been reducing my temperature and its now down to 25 degrees. I havent been adding any salt for the last few days as i want the new meds to work on their own without anything altering their chemistry. Does this make sense?

My ex says i can get soft water from her house when i need it, so i'll gradually add some on my next water change, until hopefully my tanks will only be using her water. It comes out of her tap at 6.9
If i change 50 ltrs out of 280, it shouldnt alter the PH too much to start?
Thanks